Diary of using a new method to cure my aggressive dog.

smkie

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#41
I don't get it..so he is desensitizing to himself first? By coming in and going out? I musta missed something.

I think the big cue is when you wrote..he is aggressive to some people and some dogs and "this upsets me". Is this trainer talking with you about your body language and your reaction? I didn't see that in there. MAYBE I missed it.
 

Baxter'smybaby

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#42
I am wondering why you are all over the internet (hmmm--about eight forums that I located readily) pumping your story, encouraging everyone to subscribe to your threads? Hmm....not so sure I trust you, mother.
 
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#44
Yes...and i have told everyone that i am across several forums! I have just been introduced to forums on the internet and i'm loving it! It's like being able to socialise from home. :)
What is the fault that everyone sees in this? Please explain.

I'm the sort of person who like to socialise and meet new people. Is there a problem with this?

I thought the best way of talking to people would be to talk about something that would generate interest. My few posts on this forum in particular have done that.

Look, if you don't wish to have my company, just ask and i will leave.
Sorry for upsetting you.

MotherTrust.

P.S. there are no catches? I'm starting to see that people are taking me for something that i am not. :(
 
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#45
Generally, most people join 1-3 forums....when they join more there is generally spam involved.

I think people are confused as we don't really see what the "trainer" is trying to accomplish.

No one is asking you to leave, your posting style is just a bit different and that raises flags with most people :)
 

colliewog

Collies&Terriers, Oh My!
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#46
I saw on another forum that you're in the UK ... (you don't have your location listed here). I'd be curious where your trainer is from.
 

Dekka

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#47
Yes...and i have told everyone that i am across several forums! I have just been introduced to forums on the internet and i'm loving it! It's like being able to socialise from home. :)
What is the fault that everyone sees in this? Please explain.

I'm the sort of person who like to socialise and meet new people. Is there a problem with this?

I thought the best way of talking to people would be to talk about something that would generate interest. My few posts on this forum in particular have done that.

Look, if you don't wish to have my company, just ask and i will leave.
Sorry for upsetting you.

MotherTrust.

P.S. there are no catches? I'm starting to see that people are taking me for something that i am not. :(
You aren't really participating in the forum though. Just this one thread. And a really strange thread at that. Personally I think you are being swindled.

Unlike many forums this one is populated by some awesome trainers, who have actual accomplishments that are verifiable. These trainers are willing to explain methods, and discuss them. So you are posting to a forum of educated dog owners, you are not likely going to get the 'awww thats great' sort of posts. You are going to get actual discussion. (and many people don't want that)

Its not that you aren't welcome here, of course you are. Its just that you are coming across very spam/trollish. Look at it from our point of view, you are trying to share/educate us on a topic many of us know well.. but then can't actually talk about it.
 
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#48
I see where you are coming from now.

Yes i am from the UK and so is the trainer.

I would love everyone to participate with me throughout this diary....and some people have (at least in other forums) telling me about what other factors could cause the behaviour being seen.

As i say, i know as much as you do about the trainer. So i really can't explain any further what he is doing...
Hence why i am doing this diary. Let me have one more session with this guy, i will get as much information out of him as possible and share it with you.

Sorry again,

MotherTrust.

*P.S. not contributing? i had a huge response from my thread with the 'what would your dog say?'.... :p
 

Dekka

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#49
You did, but there is more than just making threads :D

The thing is you should never, ever ever EVAR let anyone work with your dog if you don't know what their plan is. If they can't explain it to you, well then chances are pretty high they are a scam. Or if they won't its cause they are planning something they think you won't like.

This thread gave you loads of good advice and ways to look at things. Esp the dominance "thing". Its great you are getting a trainer, but we don't want to see your dog set back by some crack pot, or some innocent loving pet owner fleeced by the latest scam guru.
 

Doberluv

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#50
Constructive criticism is great and i appreciate it....what i dislike is how you take something you don't know anything about....and knock it down when for all we know, this could work and help many people.
Something about this statement you made really bothers me. 1) You have gotten ONLY constructive criticism or rather this trainer you are speaking of. And 2) People here aren't taking something they know nothing about. When talking about dogs, behavior and training, there are several professional trainers and a lot of experienced, educated dog owners who absolutely are not taking something they know nothing about.

First of all, dog behavior and training is a science. There are specific, step by step methods to deal with all kinds of behavior....tried and true methods. Many people on this forum have been helped by those methods, even though it is not always easy or practical to try to remedy some things over the Internet without seeing the dog. Trainers and dog owners alike have written thousands upon thousands of posts right here on this forum, outlining processes for people to go through with very good results.

You're right in a sense. We're taking something we don't know about, (whatever it is your trainer is "doing" and "knocking it" because there is no substance to what you've told us. I will knock something that has nothing to back it up... when there IS something of substance available. (training methods) Why would anyone play around with something they know nothing about? Why are you playing around with something you know nothing about?:eek:

Here you come and tell us about getting a "trainer" who can not tell you what he's going to do with your dog, other than relax and drink tea. Do I have that right? To sit in your house and relax and see the dog relax too? And this is a method? I don't think so. As I said before, there's a lot more to desensatizing and counter conditioning a dog to his fears or triggers for his behavior.

When I get a call from someone with a behavior issue, I go to their house and evaluate their dog and they explain things in more detail than I got on the phone call. I watch their dog, watch how they interact with their dog and let them explain what their dog does in the face of certain triggers which may not be there at that time.

Then I tell them of my plan, not in terrific detail but I explain the basics of what they'll be doing to achieve a certain goal. I explain an approximate time line....about how long it should take to get from point A to point B to point C. If it requires having some helpers come to practice, like visitors the dog may get reactive or aggressive toward, I'll suggest they talk to some brave friends to help out the next visit or maybe it might be a couple visits down the road, depending on where their dog is and what he might need as a pre-requisit.

If it's dogs their dog has a problem with, I tell them to talk to some people they might know with good "lesson dogs" that we can set up for the next time to practice their dog with. In other words, I give them an outline of my ideas and plans, which generally utilize a step by step, desensatizing/counter-conditioning program. I don't explain in such great detail that they won't need me to come back. LOL. But I lay my cards out on the table pretty much. And I do charge for a minimum number of sessions, depending on their dog's problem.

They know what my philosophies are about punishment and how dogs interpret things and how they learn..... and very frequently, someone has given the dog a hard time in the presence of the triggers so I am sure to let them know that this mustn't happen anymore and I tell them why. I give them alternative ways to deal with it while they're working on the lesson plan. In other words, if the dog can't do such and such yet, then take him into another room before opening the door to strangers.

The thing is, we haven't heard one thing concrete or specific as far as method. Your trainer apparently hasn't told you anything except something about relaxing. So you're up in the air, not really knowing what he's going to do. This is not normal. It sends up big red flags to me. I just hate to see anyone waste her money.

And more importantly, if you don't know what he knows about dog behavior, you're fying by the seat of your pants, which you have freely admitted. This could be harmful to your dog. I don't know what he or you mean by being dominant over your dog. What, specifically are you to do to be dominant? Do you know what results are probable with what you are doing? It doesn't sound like it. :confused:

I would never let someone mess with me or my dog if I didn't understand explicitly what they had planned, what their experience or education in dog behavior was. Furthermore, I wouldn't pay a trainer for whom I didn't have referrences from other known people and/or seen in person, a few dogs the trainer had worked on.... and if I didn't understand their philosophy about the use of punishment. I'd want to see how they interact with dogs. And I'd want to know absolutely, that their methods were based on tried and true science. I will say that your user name aptly describes you. ;)

It's up to you. You opened this up for discussion. We're glad you're here. And I hope you learn something and you and your dog get what is needed.:)
 

adojrts

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#51
Something about this statement you made really bothers me. 1) You have gotten ONLY constructive criticism or rather this trainer you are speaking of. And 2) People here aren't taking something they know nothing about. When talking about dogs, behavior and training, there are several professional trainers and a lot of experienced, educated dog owners who absolutely are not taking something they know nothing about.

First of all, dog behavior and training is a science. There are specific, step by step methods to deal with all kinds of behavior....tried and true methods. Many people on this forum have been helped by those methods, even though it is not always easy or practical to try to remedy some things over the Internet without seeing the dog. Trainers and dog owners alike have written thousands upon thousands of posts right here on this forum, outlining processes for people to go through with very good results.

You're right in a sense. We're taking something we don't know about, (whatever it is your trainer is "doing" and "knocking it" because there is no substance to what you've told us. I will knock something that has nothing to back it up... when there IS something of substance available. (training methods) Why would anyone play around with something they know nothing about? Why are you playing around with something you know nothing about?:eek:

Here you come and tell us about getting a "trainer" who can not tell you what he's going to do with your dog, other than relax and drink tea. Do I have that right? To sit in your house and relax and see the dog relax too? And this is a method? I don't think so. As I said before, there's a lot more to desensatizing and counter conditioning a dog to his fears or triggers for his behavior.

When I get a call from someone with a behavior issue, I go to their house and evaluate their dog and they explain things in more detail than I got on the phone call. I watch their dog, watch how they interact with their dog and let them explain what their dog does in the face of certain triggers which may not be there at that time.

Then I tell them of my plan, not in terrific detail but I explain the basics of what they'll be doing to achieve a certain goal. I explain an approximate time line....about how long it should take to get from point A to point B to point C. If it requires having some helpers come to practice, like visitors the dog may get reactive or aggressive toward, I'll suggest they talk to some brave friends to help out the next visit or maybe it might be a couple visits down the road, depending on where their dog is and what he might need as a pre-requisit.

If it's dogs their dog has a problem with, I tell them to talk to some people they might know with good "lesson dogs" that we can set up for the next time to practice their dog with. In other words, I give them an outline of my ideas and plans, which generally utilize a step by step, desensatizing/counter-conditioning program. I don't explain in such great detail that they won't need me to come back. LOL. But I lay my cards out on the table pretty much. And I do charge for a minimum number of sessions, depending on their dog's problem.

They know what my philosophies are about punishment and how dogs interpret things and how they learn..... and very frequently, someone has given the dog a hard time in the presence of the triggers so I am sure to let them know that this mustn't happen anymore and I tell them why. I give them alternative ways to deal with it while they're working on the lesson plan. In other words, if the dog can't do such and such yet, then take him into another room before opening the door to strangers.

The thing is, we haven't heard one thing concrete or specific as far as method. Your trainer apparently hasn't told you anything except something about relaxing. So you're up in the air, not really knowing what he's going to do. This is not normal. It sends up big red flags to me. I just hate to see anyone waste her money.

And more importantly, if you don't know what he knows about dog behavior, you're fying by the seat of your pants, which you have freely admitted. This could be harmful to your dog. I don't know what he or you mean by being dominant over your dog. What, specifically are you to do to be dominant? Do you know what results are probable with what you are doing? It doesn't sound like it. :confused:

I would never let someone mess with me or my dog if I didn't understand explicitly what they had planned, what their experience or education in dog behavior was. Furthermore, I wouldn't pay a trainer for whom I didn't have referrences from other known people and/or seen in person, a few dogs the trainer had worked on.... and if I didn't understand their philosophy about the use of punishment. I'd want to see how they interact with dogs. And I'd want to know absolutely, that their methods were based on tried and true science. I will say that your user name aptly describes you. ;)

It's up to you. You opened this up for discussion. We're glad you're here. And I hope you learn something and you and your dog get what is needed.:)
:hail::hail::hail::hail:
 
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#54
I spoke to the guy on the phone today and also have just read the last few posts.

I have to take a step back now and admit, that i have been wrong or led people on this forum in the wrong direction.

I took another look at my threads and post in detail and re-read them to find that somethings i have said are completely opposite to what i believe.

In one sentence, i have been too excited to take in any of your criticism and advice and gone straight into writing about my feelings. I am sorry for this and i do hope you can forgive me for my lack of attention.

Also, as i say, i spoke to the guy on the phone today. He has explained to me (again) his method of behaviour training and i will write it out as clearly as possible.

The reason i have not been fully wanting to explain this method to you in the first place is because i did not want to receive criticism in its place. I have talked to people before who, when i have explained what this guy does, have just laughed in my face.
I hope that if i now explain it, you guys will read it and respect it as if it were your own method.

I have been wrong and i do believe, that you will be able to relate to my trainer as i guess the best way to fully explain his technique is to show you his website. I am awful at explaining things (as you know!) and so take a look at this link.
I know i said i would keep details strict until i have seen evidence that this technique works but i have no choice and will let you decide for yourselves. I will continue to update the diary also.

Mod Edit: This is the hook you've been waiting for: The Trust Technique James French

I did the free sign-up and i encourage you to do this as well, as from doing this you can enter the classroom and learn more about his ways of teaching. The site is fairly new so please excuse any mistakes.
Yes, there is evidence of the technique at work in the videos but i wanted my own. :p

Hopefully, we can start on a new level and everything will be clearer for all of us?

Thankyou to Doberluv for pulling me back down to earth. I am sorry again.

MotherTrust.
 
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Doberluv

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#55
Thank you Adojrts, Tsume's mom and Saintgirl. That was nice. I really was just rambling off my thoughts in my typical, long-winded posting style....that got longer than I intended.

Mothertrust, I clicked on your link and read the first part....the philosophy and it sounds very nice and in accordance with what many of us think....gentleness, non-forceful, kind treatment of animals. It looks like maybe if I sign up, I might be able to read some specifics on method and it says it's free. But they want my email address and there are a bunch of credit cards shown that can be used. So, I'm confused. Is it free or is it not? He also asks for money which is another red flag to me, even though he says it's for rescue. So, I am uncomfortable signing up at all.

And I am skeptical as to what I'll glean from signing up. I would think if he weren't trying to occlude something, he'd go ahead and talk about some of his actual methods without making you go through hoops. Most other trainers and websites offer training articles and all kinds of information right off the bat, without all this nonsense. I can link you to many if you wish. If you would like to copy and paste something concrete that would tell us exactly how he goes about solving particular behavior issues, that would be fine. You can copy and paste legally, if you include the link, which you have.

There is really only one way dogs learn. And that is by operant and classical conditioning. (okay....2 ways. lol) Oh, and there's that thing about "social learning," which in essences still falls into the operant conditioning basis ultimately. Social learning can not be excluded, naturally because dogs are living creatures that come into contact with other living creatures. So, "social learning" can not be avoided. It's normal, natural, not something to epiphanize as something newly discovered, as some Cesar Milan followers, for instance, expound on as though it negates operant conditioning based training.

There are four quadrants involved in learning; positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. There are various ways to utilize these parts of learning theory. So, whatever your trainer is doing falls under some or all of those quadrants. I doubt, in other words, that anything he does is going to be particularly unique. I can't imagine that anything he has to say.....if he ever does say, is going to have a "Wow factor" for some of us. Maybe though, he has some unique ways to administer something to a dog. Or....a fresh idea.

You can post something from his website if you like. I wouldn't mind seeing what he would do for various behavior problems or how he goes about teaching things. He may incorporate a little dash of this and a little dollup of that, which some of us may not have thought of. So I'm always opened and interested to seeing what others do and like learning of new ideas I can use. I'm just saying that it's probably nothing earth shakingly unique....if it's anything at all. LOL. This thread is 6 pages long and we still don't know what it is he does. :rofl1:

*rubs hands together impatiently....waiting for the big discovery.* :p
 

ACooper

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#56
Hmmmmmmmmmm, Mother Trust........Trust Technique.........are you talking about yourself in the third person to get us all rushing to sign up at your site? :confused:
 

Doberluv

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#58
A-w-w Coop. How could you even think such a thing?! I'm going to change your name to Mother Skeptic. No way could Mother Trust be doing such a deceitful thing. :rolleyes: After all, her name has "Trust" in it.:rofl1:
 

Baxter'smybaby

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#59
Hmmmmmmmmmm, Mother Trust........Trust Technique.........are you talking about yourself in the third person to get us all rushing to sign up at your site? :confused:
me thinks this is no coincidence.... so do tell us oh mother...to trust or not to trust.
 

Doberluv

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#60
I trust that she'll tell us if we should trust or not trust. Whether or not I trust the trust, I am not sure to trust. :p
 

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