Training a spoiled, 7 year old, male shih tzu.

Oh Robbie. Calm down now. You're going to get over this very soon when you stop taking yourself so seriously. I'm sure if you met me in person, you'd find me top drawer! *throws in the sophisticated, English accent* You'd love me to pieces. I'm charming, witty and I'm a real people pleaser. I have the biggest heart ever. I'd fall over backwards for you. I just can't help myself though. I love playing with those little man-like guys under bridges. When they snap at the air like a dog, I love using my tricks to body block them. You're making a big mistake in your assessment of me. I don't love to start fights.:fighting0040: I only like to join in the fun. I just don't understand...:dunno:

Thanks Mandy

Hi,

Thanks Mandy
Great advice, also. I need time to digest all of this advice.

Robbie_d

Good luck. Generally the dog isn't that difficult to train -- it's the owner

But . . . you won't find anyone here (at least not anyone who is active) who has anything good to say about Koehler, Cesar or anything that uses those sillydamn dominance theories and alpha rhetoric. Sure, it looks like it works on a lot of dogs, but it works for the wrong reasons, and some of us have dogs that, frankly, would likely turn lethal if handled that foolishly. While it's not dangerous to the human to use bombastic, barbaric bullying tactics on a 10 pound toy breed, well, it really should be beneath us to use fear as a training tool in place of respect.

Here, here! I'll drink to that! And your whole post.:cheers:

I am wondering why you would be so concerned about a neighbors dogs but here goes anyway. She, not you should be training the dog or at the very least wanting the information. Probably one of the best methods is NILIF for her to use (google it, print it and give it). She needs to train the dog a 'watch me' and a 'leave it'. She can capture the 'watch me' and mark it with a Yes!, then reward but I would recommend that be done in the house and in a quiet room with little or no distractions at first.
I would recommend that she know the huge difference between lure training and reward based training because it sure is easy to screw up lure training and then blame it reward based training. Gate bolting easy, teach the dog an auto sit or down on leash, when the dogs sits/downs, it gets what it wants by going through the gate (when told too), otherwise you ask the dog to sit/down again and close the gate, takes a little bit but a very effective method of training: using what the dog wants to get them to do what you want. Also don't forget release words to end a behaviour, another thing that people often screw up on.

Compulsion training IE the Koehler method does work to train dogs and in some situations with some dogs compulsion still is used although most people do this as a last resort such as the case of the forced retrieve. It's worked for a long time on a great many dogs along the same lines that you can hammer nails through a 2x4 with a sledge hammer. You may destroy the board and the nails but it will eventually drive a nail through the board. Koehler's methodology was similar in that while it may produce a few good dogs at the end result the grand majority of dogs do not have the nerve or the temperament to withstand such heavy handling many dislike their handlers and lose the drive to perform a task. There are better ways now to get what you want.

First thing I would consider with this dog is that if Koehler's methodology is appropriate. My guess is that the answer is no. Toy dogs are not the military working german shepherds Koehler refined his methods on. Toy dogs are much softer nervous animals in general and don't take kindly to over the top corrections. It's quite possible you could make this dog much worse in general in the process of curing the behavior.

My suggestion would be to work on basic obedience on this dog. I am guessing this dog doesn't know his name, come, or anything in reliability. I also wouldn't allow this pup to play with other dogs until this is solid. I don't allow my pups to play with other dogs until they're solid in obedience under moderate distractions.

As to the long line work. I use a modified method. I always use a harness. I will usually use a twenty foot lead. I walk back and forth, in a square, whatever. When the dog hits the end of the leash he is not usually running but walking or trotting. Hitting the end of the lead does not harm the dog, even at a gallop. With my niece's chihuahua I used a six foot lead because I thought the buckle on the 20 foot was too heavy for her. She learned to pay attention to me and stop lunging after five minutes. I wouldn't bet on other dogs taking five minutes, she was very smart.

Separate from the yard work, she should be taught a solid sit and recall. Use the clicker. If you use a choker your neighbor will not be inclined to follow up on the training, but she probably will with the clicker. My guess is she is much more in tune with reward than with punishment. She will probably enjoy doling out little goodies for good behavior. Once the dog is doing well with sit and recall (which it has probably been taught), go around the yard on a six foot leash and have the dog sit and recall every single place. As I stated above, this is where Koehler did not have the knowledge that we have now in regards to how dogs learn and he thought that the dogs were being rebellious when they didn't obey in class after having been taught something at home. Dogs don't generalize, so you have to repeat the lesson in every corner of the yard "just because". After you've worked the dog in every spot in the yard, put on the long long and work on the sit and recall from a distance from the dog. The long line will give the dog more freedom without giving him total freedom.

Once the dog is reliable with a distant sit he can be taught to stop and sit at a specified distance from the fence, say five feet. Without distractions, work him at sitting five feet from the fence, click and treat.

You have to realize too that Koehler could have taught a dog anything. You'll find most trainers enjoy training dogs, it's the owners they have difficulty with. A good trainer has an intuition with dogs which means while he can train a dog and make it look easy, teaching someone else the same method will have mixed results. Much of the respect that dogs had for him was because it was "him". His confidence, his sense of command, his posture, his tone of voice. If he were alive today I think he would use a clicker.

Why am i so concerned about HER barking dog?

Hi adojrts,
Good question. I want the dog trained because my bedroom is facing the back yard where her dog charges at the fence, barking, and it abruptly wakes me up some mornings - a real JOLT.

The dog charges the fence about 20 times per day, followed by her constant
screaming and yelling. It bothers me that she thinks the screaming and yelling is helping the situation - she is just as annoying as the dog. Put them both together and they are REALLY annoying, especialy as she sits down all tired-out acting like 'it's so much work having a dog'. She has no idea what to do. When she used to go to work, the dog would be barking all day behind the living room window facing the street. After a few complaints from her upstairs neighbor, she put card-board in the entire window so he couldn't see outside.
I think she lost her job and now gets unemployment insurance. So, now, the "good dog owner" lets her dog enjoy the fresh air by sitting all day in the back yard.

I play clasical guitar and i'm learning new classical pieces, so, i tap my foot to keep the beat, and then, i hear this dog barking at a different tempo and it throws me off time. I am taking a midday nap or dozing off early in the evening, and then BARKBARKBARK followed by her yelling after the barking dog.
These are some reasons why i want to do something - for peace and quiet.

Also, anyone can see by how the dog bolts out of the house and yard at top speed, running into the street that this dog can be fatally struck by a car, which is another reason why i am concerned about her dog.

She THINKS she is doing the right thing by screaming "Bad dog! Get in the house!" at the dog, like most dog owners who ever thought about training a dog.
She is a young, 27 year old women and she bought the dog when she was 20 - probably thinking it's a way of showing responsibility or independance or maybe as a substitute child. She probably thought that all she had to do with a dog was to housebreak it. She probably saw someone yelling at an untrained dog once, and thought to herself, "Well, that looks like fun, I get to scream and act annoyed." This is her third summer here. It's in the lease that no barking dogs are allowed but the landlord allowed the barking Bichon Maltese and this Shih tzu to move in. It's been nothing but complaints ever since. The problem is, it seems i am the only one now who is bothered by the constant barking. The other annoyed tennats moved. Everyone else is either drunk or high on pot and/or coke and probably think this is all very entertraining or they also have yappy, untrained dogs. Sometimes there are 4 dogs in the yard just downstairs from my window. Along with the Yorkie, there is also a Jack Russel who visits the Shih Tzu. So there are three dogs in one yard sometimes, and a yappy Maltese in the adjoining yard. ALL UNTRAINED.

None of my dogs barked or rushed a fence, thanks to that outdated, old school, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE man with his guard dog training book which is so outdated and hated. My last dog died 8 years ago at 10 years old due to an infection that the vet had no idea what to do with, except to ask me for yet another $200 to try yet another expensive test. The dog was put down due to my lack of money. Ever since then, i get a tear in my eye when i think about owning another dog. My Benson, was half English Sheepdog and half German Shepard. He looked like an all black, long haired, very shaggy, slightly shorter and thinner version of a Bouvier des Floundres - the best behaved dog in my area where i live. I was able to sleep nights with my front and back door wide open with Benson not tied up, he was free to roam but never did. He would go downstairs to pee, and then come back upstairs. Some mornings i would see him laying on his side at the bottom of the staircase on the cool, morning sidewalk (i live on the second floor). On the balcony he would lay there and just watch the dogs and cats pass by without making a sound. He never barked at anything. He was an incredible, irreplaceable dog with a wonderful temperment and disposition.

Anyway, you should see my neighbour after she chases the dog down in the yard and sits down again, she act like a fed-up boss who has an incapable but well-loved employee who can't be fired. It seems she thinks that by yelling at the dog, that the neighbors will recognize her efforts and say, "Well, at least she's trying to stop the problem." It's a way to have the neigbours sympathizing with her constant but fruitless efforts.
We, here, all know she is doing nothing except re-inforcing the dog's bad behaviour. The dog rushes at the fence, barking, and she follows suite. This poor dog is thinking its doing the RIGHT thing based on the owner's copycat behaviour.

That is why i want to help out. But i know how the Koehler method is viewed, so i am here asking for other options. FOR SURE the neighbors will view the Koehler method as if i am trying to hurt or break her dog's neck. I just don't want to be viewed like that after knowing what i now know. I have not been in touch with new training methods at all, which is why i started this thread.
I still like some of Koehler's methods as far as the basic obedience goes. It's the only method i ever knew of, so i guess i need to re-learn other methods, which i am not opposed to learning and doing.

Robbie_d

Thanks to everyone.

Hi all,

I can't respond to every post but i am reading them closely.
Thanks for all the advice.

Robbie_d

You know, a good start might be to get a high powered water gun . . . And blast the neighbor every time she starts screaming at the dog

Best advice given so far :rofl1:

Seriously, why don't you take up donations, do research on good training places in your area, and approach the owner with a gift certificate for training? Then she can learn and maybe she'll let you come with her to learn the newer methods too.

Buy ear plugs and use them, if that was her kids and she was yelling but not abusing the kids you would have no grounds to interfer, so why is it ok with her dog??

Nobody said that the older more traditional methods didn't work, the problem was and remains that the fall out from the methods can be huge. You might be surprised to learn that many of us here that are opposed to these methods are the same people that are in fact cross over trainers. Meaning we've been there, done that and learned that there are better more humane methods based on science and proven learning theory.
Kinda like the ex-smoker that chirps the most about not smoking??

Correcting an error in my text in a previous post

My correction is marked by red font

She THINKS she is doing the right thing by screaming "Bad dog! Get in the house!" at the dog, like most dog owners who never thought about training a dog.

An episode of my soap opera.

Hi,

Yea a water gun. Hmmm.

They don't really like me very much as i am "a maudit bloke who 'complains' about harmless, little, barking dogs" in their opinion.
See, i live in Montreal, Quebec. So, there are political languages barriers, too, which add to any pre-existant discomfort caused by barking dogs. They are all French who barely speak English and i am the other way around with French. So, clear communication is...lacking, sometimes.
So, me, pointing a water gun at her dog would be seen as a threat of some kind, afterall, javex could be in the water gun.

I would love to point a water gun at her, though, as you suggest, only thing is, we are not all that friendly due to how i had to handle the barking Maltese problem directly downstairs from me (which is her neighbor on the bottom flat who shares the fence that separates the two yards) a couple of summers ago. Everyone complained by rolling their eyes, or admitting that "that Maltese dog does bark too much", whenever the Maltese would bark - but no one wanted to say anything about it to the owners. When everyone finally expressed their dislike about the barking, to me, I WENT down with smiles and doggy suggestions about maybe covering the fence so the dog can't see outside the yard, i suggested the citronella coller, shaking a can of coins to creat noise, a water pistol, They kept refusing all suggestions, and maintained that their dog is unstoppable. Well, that continued until all hell broke loose when they refused to quiet their dog.
To top it off. When i confronted the maltese owner, i asked openly for support from the other silent complaining neighbors (who are all French, by the way) while trying to explain that no one wantes to listen to her dog. THEY Guess what?...ALL DENIED IT, and said, "The barking doesn't bother me.", making me look the ONLY ONE who disliked the barking. That's how they have more entertainment, the drunken drug users. Another neighbor told me later that she just didn't want to get involved (she's the yorkie owner who used to roll her eyes, too, each time the maltese barked). Some support!

It was a war, and i won, and they (the maltese owners) were/are poor losers, and me being English and them being French with these yappy dogs who are all mature dogs, it makes it more stressful. Their disliking me so much is caused mostly by the landlord's female, (French) secretary who also owns a barking toy breed. When i asked her to send a reminder of the house rules to the maltese owners about barking dogs not being allowed, she, instead, sent a highly threatening letter to the maltese owners on my behalf. She caused so much trouble and then turned it around, and ignored my complaint and then tried to evict me. She was so disapproving of me complaining about the Maltese barking, she actually tried to get me evicted. She took it upon herself to stand behind the Maltese owners and ignore the house rules, which were set out by the landlord, himself, and tried to make me look like I WAS the bad tenant by accusing me of doing laundry all night long, my smoke detector going off several times a night, moving furniture after midnight, dropping heavy things on the floor all day and night, even being excessively rude and impolite to all the other tenants. She even told the landlord that i was complaining about the silent-barking yorkie who had its vocal cords cut - she sent all this to the rental board, too, and lodged a complaint against me, suggesting to them they be allowed to evict me. It was all lies, of course, i am in bed most nights by 11 or 12.

All i did do was, one day, after the police were called and and the secretary was complained to and no one wanted to do anything) was to bang a 25lbs barebell on the floor nonstop really hard for about 2 whole minutes while SCREAMING in French at the floor "DO YOU UNDERSTAND, NOW?? SHUT UP YOUR DOG!!" after that the secratery tried to evict me.

When i later spoke to the landlord, himself, and showed him all her complaints and how false they were and told him that "I HAVE HIRED A LAWYER now because of your secretary." The dog suddenly stopped barking.
BUT it still barks on occasion...just not as much. They are another dimwit owner whose dog has tuned them out.
It has gotten better, though, even though i feel as though they are talking at the gate, telling each other, "He better not start complaining again because i'll....".

I am definately on the outside of the neighbor box, here. Typical stuff here in Montreal, Quebec between the French and English folks.
I was really nice at first, too, to the Maltese owners for the first year and a half. I was being really nice with them.

Now, they won't even look at me, and if they do, it's only to flash their raised eyebrows up to my balcony and grimace because I MADE THEM stop their little 10 year old yapper from yapping. What a suprise for them to learn that all their lame excuses that they have been using on their previous neighbors for years, about how they can't stop their dog from barking, didn't work on me. I told her that her dog suffers from separation anxiety and needs her in the yard with her dog, she refused to do that. She ended up having to take my advice anyway and now she disgruntledly sits with her dog in the yard when she puts it out to do its pissness. They used to just put their dog out in the back yard and just close their kitchen door so they wouldn't have to hear their own dog barking. Well, that's all stopped now.

At the time, which was the latest, last summer, the shih tzu was in the house all day when the owner worked, so i never really cared if it barked in her house, i figured that someone else would complain, and someone did. But now it's barking outside, and i can't keep the attitude that its barking does not bug me, mainly because now, the Maltese owner is thinking," Well, if the shih zu is allowed to bark all day, my maltese should be allowed to bark a little, also."
And the "little" will get bigger and bigger as time passes by until it's like a dog kennel down there with frantically barking dogs and owners all shouting over it to be heard.
See the situation? It's not an easy one.

However, the other neighbors all silently enjoy the new peace in the yards, since the maltese stopped barking. They're letting the shih tzu bark to see what i will do, i am sure. They don't want to complain because that would make the French people appear to be agreeing with the "maudit Anglais" (AKA, me).

Getting money together for HER to get her dog trained is why i am offering to do it for free. No one will want to dish out cash, c'mon they have beer and drugs to buy. Getting the dog trained means that will stop the ensuing arguments that might arise due to the shih tzu now barking as much as the Maltese used to do. Why would THEY pay for that?! They liked all of that Maltese drama, i am trying to avoid more of the same by nicely offering to train the shih tzu. With all that in mind, can you just imagine me using Koehler's methods in this touchy situation.


Robbie_d

P.S.
Yes, Montreal is a charming, European-like city to visit, and we have healtlh care and all the other social services, and sexy women (and men, too, i suppose), but if you don't speak French, i would not suggest living here.

Ahhhhh now I remember why I enjoy living on 16 acres.

Just to add a note to my previous post in this thread.

....the shih tzu owner put herself in the middle of me and the maltese owner, once...just once...when the first, BIG, loud confrontation with the maltese owner happened - when my smiles were gone and the suggestions, i first made, became strong demands.
The shih tzu owner tried to defend her neighbor's maltese because she knew that she also has a problem barking dog. So, maybe, now, she thinks she is "next" on my "hit-list".
So, there is that to consider. lol

How's the opcorn: ? Got 'nuff butter?
It gets better.

Robbie_d

Funny....that was not the impression I got from the post where you responded to my post. I posted an offer to help... a legitimate, polite post. I was genuinely trying to help like I always do on here. And that's when I felt attacked and criticized for simply trying to help show some good ways to train. Hmmmm...

Everyone, just look at these two following posts, pretty pleeeeeze?….Mine with my opinion about Koehler and some recommendations for books and some links. (like we do all the time on here and most people appreciate those links because they’re educational and helpful) Where was I rude here? Then look at his post. Nothing but smart ass, rude, sardonic and asinine...mocking my 15,000 posts and saying something about my living on the forum. (huh?) I've accumulated that many posts since 2004. Why should someone attack someone for enjoying being on a forum and implying that I don't have a life otherwise?

First he indicates that he doesn’t want to know about positive methods, doesn't appreciate the advice, doesn‘t want to hear what‘s wrong with punishment based training, then he writes what is quoted above. Huh? Do you wonder why I got snarky afterward and thought he was a troll...here to make jabs and stir up trouble?




The whole thing is laden with rude, aggressive, ungrateful remarks. I simply gave my opinion on Koehler and proceded to offer helpful links, which 99% of people receive with appreciation and word of thanks....even if they don't wind up using them. It surprises me that anyone here would continue to help this piece of sh!t! I guess when you think about the dog's welfare.....but the little dog is probably better off getting screeched at from his owner and having fun running the fence than by interacting with this anti-social psychopath. The dog is by now, habituated to the screeming and yelling, I'm sure.

Let's see . . . you said the barking was a real pain when you are trying to practice classical guitar?

You might consider -- at least temporarily -- taking up "classic" bagpipes -- at least when the dogs are out. I know I would. Or maybe French horn, which your French speaking neighbors might understand a little better

The whole thing is laden with rude, aggressive, ungrateful remarks. I simply gave my opinion on Koehler and proceded to offer helpful links, which 99% of people receive with appreciation and word of thanks....even if they don't wind up using them. It surprises me that anyone here would continue to help this piece of sh!t! I guess when you think about the dog's welfare.....but the little dog is probably better off getting screeched at from his owner and having fun running the fence than by interacting with this anti-social psychopath. The dog is by now, habituated to the screeming and yelling, I'm sure.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, this song aint about you so don't take it so personally. Everyone here is free to take advice or leave it. I know you tried to help but you need to understand, while Koehler's methodology isn't your cup of tea and it's a little heavier handed than most methods but it will train a dog. The reason his methodology has stuck around so long is that very simply, it works. It has some downsides to the dog's learning and relationships but it does work. Do I think there is a better way, yeah. Could I be wrong in the case of this dog? Absolutely.

Let the OP figure this out based upon the feedback provided.

Exactly. Of course. And people do that all the time. But he didn't just leave it. He ramrodded me with insults about what brand of advice I was offering. So, yeah, it's personal and those personal attacks were about me because they were directed toward me and my post.

It's not about whether he likes Koehler or not. I couldn't care less that he didn't agree with me about Koehler or anything else. It was his sarcastic, rude and nasty post, telling me off for offering advice, trying to help, that wasn't apparently what he was looking for....links to training techniques, book ideas etc. (how was I to know he wouldn't like some links to training articles or some new book ideas?) THAT'S what I had a problem with, NOT that he didn't agree with me about Koehler. He sounded like a bratty little snot all through that post. Good grief!

This is a forum, made up of people who are interested in dogs. I've been on here since 2004 and have felt a part of the Chaz "family" for a long time. Then some ass hat marches in like gang busters and shoots me down when I was doing what I have been doing all these years. Never have I come across anyone so rude, just because I missed the mark on just exactly what they were looking for in the way of help. Never! So, if you wonder why I responded the way I did thereafter, well....there you have it.

My last piece of advice. Move.