What makes a good breeder in your mind?
- Thread starter ~Dixie's_Mom~
- Start date
So I am. I was referring to real working dogs. And yes I have seen it happen. What excuse is there not to health test? IMO unless you are worried about not being able to breed your fave dog you have nothing to loose.
I am talking working BC and working JRTs... and yes it happens with dismaying frequency. And its not that the dog ever shows the issue.
For example. Dog is a fantastic worker, never a problem, he retires with nary an issue. Never health tested... Has ooodles of fantastic working pups. None are health tested.. all of a sudden these dogs start showing issues. But not only has the stud dog sired oodles of dogs, they have started to reproduce.
Why not heath test?
I am talking working BC and working JRTs... and yes it happens with dismaying frequency. And its not that the dog ever shows the issue.
For example. Dog is a fantastic worker, never a problem, he retires with nary an issue. Never health tested... Has ooodles of fantastic working pups. None are health tested.. all of a sudden these dogs start showing issues. But not only has the stud dog sired oodles of dogs, they have started to reproduce.
Why not heath test?
I guess, at the end of the day if it's the right breeder with great dogs that I feel comfortable with health testing just isn't as high up on my priority or necessity list (again, depends on the breeder, the breed and the work they do daily).
So, I see and agree with almost all your points but for me, it still isn't a deal breaker in all cases
So, I see and agree with almost all your points but for me, it still isn't a deal breaker in all cases
In the breeds that I own, I would expect:
Complete health testing relevant to the issues found in the breed
Titles
Longevity
Breeder support and knowledge
In no way shape or form would I buy a Doberman from someone who doesn't do something with their dogs. Same thing with Sibes.
If the dogs are so fabulous that they deserve to be bred in the first place, it should be easy to prove it to a third party.
Just my opinion, of course.
Complete health testing relevant to the issues found in the breed
Titles
Longevity
Breeder support and knowledge
In no way shape or form would I buy a Doberman from someone who doesn't do something with their dogs. Same thing with Sibes.
If the dogs are so fabulous that they deserve to be bred in the first place, it should be easy to prove it to a third party.
Just my opinion, of course.
lol ok but why?
What excuse could a breeder have for not health testing? Money, its a drop in the bucket as breeding expenses go. Whether a dog works its whole life sound and healthy makes no difference.
Bounce is the carrier of a serious eye issue. Now that we know that (which we would NEVER know if she wasn't genetically tested) she will be bred to a clear dog. Eventually when the population is such that we don't need all good dogs in the gene pool a dog that is a carrier would never be bred.
Now if I didn't test I would have bred her to a fantastic dog who was a perfect match in pretty much every way. Turns out he was also a carrier.... The dogs could have hunted rabbits and other quarry every day of their lives and we never would have been the wiser. They could have had pups that went on to have more pups before the affected dogs might have started showing issues.
So not sure how working plays into this. And if anyone tells you they have 'clean lines' they are lying, or in denial. To be honest Dekka's lines are mostly British, and most british JRT breeders didn't (don't know if they do now) test. I have no idea what is behind her lines, but it comes down to the 'working dogs' aren't tested issue. The JRT world is starting to change, thank goodness. Non testing working breeders can be the worst offenders at passing on issues... I don't cut them anymore slack than non testing BYBs really.
What excuse could a breeder have for not health testing? Money, its a drop in the bucket as breeding expenses go. Whether a dog works its whole life sound and healthy makes no difference.
Bounce is the carrier of a serious eye issue. Now that we know that (which we would NEVER know if she wasn't genetically tested) she will be bred to a clear dog. Eventually when the population is such that we don't need all good dogs in the gene pool a dog that is a carrier would never be bred.
Now if I didn't test I would have bred her to a fantastic dog who was a perfect match in pretty much every way. Turns out he was also a carrier.... The dogs could have hunted rabbits and other quarry every day of their lives and we never would have been the wiser. They could have had pups that went on to have more pups before the affected dogs might have started showing issues.
So not sure how working plays into this. And if anyone tells you they have 'clean lines' they are lying, or in denial. To be honest Dekka's lines are mostly British, and most british JRT breeders didn't (don't know if they do now) test. I have no idea what is behind her lines, but it comes down to the 'working dogs' aren't tested issue. The JRT world is starting to change, thank goodness. Non testing working breeders can be the worst offenders at passing on issues... I don't cut them anymore slack than non testing BYBs really.
I haven't read the other replies yet, here are just my opinions:
I don't really care if the breeder shows or not. No dog matches the breed standard perfectly, so as long as the dog looks like breed XYZ, that's all I care about.
Health testing is high on my priority list. I just can't accept a breeder saying "yeah they're healthy" without having anything to back it up. Especially if there are health problems that are known in the breed. Like cardiomyopathy in boxers. I'm not going to get a boxer pup from a breeder that doesn't test their dogs' hearts.
I also prefer breeders that DO something with their dogs. I'm just looking for a companion, but there are lots of dogs that fit that bill. So if you're breeding, what makes your dogs different from your neighbor's dogs?? I like to see at least a CGC, but even that doesn't say much except that you can train the basics. Most dogs can get a CGC (except for mine, LOL but I'm no trainer). I just don't think it says much about the dog. So a CGC or TDI doesn't hurt, but I'd like to see some other activity tacked on. Even if you just take agility classes or obedience classes with your dogs, and don't necessarily compete... I feel better with breeders that DO THINGS with their dogs.
I also think a good breeder only breeds on occasion, and breeds for themselves first. Not just to meet supply and demand. A good breeder will take back any dog they've bred, at any time. A good breeder begins socializing the pups.
Those are just the first things that came to mind.
I don't really care if the breeder shows or not. No dog matches the breed standard perfectly, so as long as the dog looks like breed XYZ, that's all I care about.
Health testing is high on my priority list. I just can't accept a breeder saying "yeah they're healthy" without having anything to back it up. Especially if there are health problems that are known in the breed. Like cardiomyopathy in boxers. I'm not going to get a boxer pup from a breeder that doesn't test their dogs' hearts.
I also prefer breeders that DO something with their dogs. I'm just looking for a companion, but there are lots of dogs that fit that bill. So if you're breeding, what makes your dogs different from your neighbor's dogs?? I like to see at least a CGC, but even that doesn't say much except that you can train the basics. Most dogs can get a CGC (except for mine, LOL but I'm no trainer). I just don't think it says much about the dog. So a CGC or TDI doesn't hurt, but I'd like to see some other activity tacked on. Even if you just take agility classes or obedience classes with your dogs, and don't necessarily compete... I feel better with breeders that DO THINGS with their dogs.
I also think a good breeder only breeds on occasion, and breeds for themselves first. Not just to meet supply and demand. A good breeder will take back any dog they've bred, at any time. A good breeder begins socializing the pups.
Those are just the first things that came to mind.
There is actually a breeder in my old agility class. They breed mini aussies and I would never think of her as a reputable breeder. I am pretty good with breeds but I would never have known her dogs were aussies (let alone minis, the male is bigger than most standard aussies I've met! I thought he was a golden x bc or some sort of retriever mix) They're completely driveless and slow on the field (I've trained with TWO of her dogs, one of which she's bred two or three times). And the bitch has a horrible temperament for an aussie. She's super super DA and not driven and just... blah. Anyways, so I am not sure just doing something with the dog is enough.
Anyways, for me there is a lot of grey area that I would consider getting a dog from. So far I have not found my ideal breeder in any of the breeds I want to own. (Making me wonder if I should become my ideal papillon breeder, but that's another thread...)
I agree with most posted here though. I have to add though that I'm okay with the breeder only showing in certain breeds. But I need to know that dogs she's producing are performing well enough. Mia has 0 titles in her 5 gen pedigree that are not show titles (or producing titles). But I did some more research and could tell that the performance potential was there by looking at her pedigree horizontally. There are several multiple MACH dogs starting with her sire's brother who is MACH9, obedience dogs, flyball dogs, working service dogs, and TDI/CGC dogs. So that was enough for me as well as knowing that several half siblings and close relatives had gone on to be owned by agility instructors (and reading their testimonials and watching videos I had a good idea of what Mia would be like). I can see why people want multiple titles but in some cases I'm fine without provided the horizontal pedigree has what I'm looking for and the breeder has experience placing successful performance and/or working dogs.
Anyways, for me there is a lot of grey area that I would consider getting a dog from. So far I have not found my ideal breeder in any of the breeds I want to own. (Making me wonder if I should become my ideal papillon breeder, but that's another thread...)
I agree with most posted here though. I have to add though that I'm okay with the breeder only showing in certain breeds. But I need to know that dogs she's producing are performing well enough. Mia has 0 titles in her 5 gen pedigree that are not show titles (or producing titles). But I did some more research and could tell that the performance potential was there by looking at her pedigree horizontally. There are several multiple MACH dogs starting with her sire's brother who is MACH9, obedience dogs, flyball dogs, working service dogs, and TDI/CGC dogs. So that was enough for me as well as knowing that several half siblings and close relatives had gone on to be owned by agility instructors (and reading their testimonials and watching videos I had a good idea of what Mia would be like). I can see why people want multiple titles but in some cases I'm fine without provided the horizontal pedigree has what I'm looking for and the breeder has experience placing successful performance and/or working dogs.
Dekka: I just seriously don't care that much especially for Koolies. I'm not even sure what you would test for seeing as they have embraced DNA testing for years and have yet to find a single genetic disorder they can test for that Koolies are prone to. So yeah, they could do a whole range of different health testing just to be on the safe side (and some do, which I get to hear the results of) and that's great and all.
But if the breeder I like has dogs I like that are not throwing dogs with any issues generation upon generation and is part of a breed that has no documented issues that they are prone to then I'm just not going to worry that much. The dogs speak for themselves and it works for me.
Just sit back and be happy you can say "I told you so" if something goes wrong. Otherwise I don't really see why you care that much that I would be willing to get a dog with no health testing depending on the circumstances
But if the breeder I like has dogs I like that are not throwing dogs with any issues generation upon generation and is part of a breed that has no documented issues that they are prone to then I'm just not going to worry that much. The dogs speak for themselves and it works for me.
Just sit back and be happy you can say "I told you so" if something goes wrong. Otherwise I don't really see why you care that much that I would be willing to get a dog with no health testing depending on the circumstances
To me, a good breeder wants to find their puppies LOVELY homes.. but doesn't just blanket "good" and "bad" homes based on single things. Like living in apartments, having kids etc.. I would prefer a breeder that judges applications/people CASE BY CASE.
Just wanted to add that because I think its important
I love Romeos breeder, and although I was the VERY DEFINITION of what MANY people adopting out animals fear (young, student, apartment) she trusted me and gave me my best friend!
There were lots and lots and lots of questions!! Including making sure I had my familys support in case my life changed or something went wrong. Which I'm very glad that she did because now that I look back, as much as I thought it wouldn't... MY LIFE DID CHANGE. School, Romeos injury, Moving, Changing university.. and I'm glad I have my family behind me willing to care for him and love him as I would until I get back settled.
For me, a good home is one that promises that the dog they acquire will be loved and cared for it's entire life.
and I think that's more important than some of the other trivial stuff..
Just wanted to add that because I think its important
I love Romeos breeder, and although I was the VERY DEFINITION of what MANY people adopting out animals fear (young, student, apartment) she trusted me and gave me my best friend!
There were lots and lots and lots of questions!! Including making sure I had my familys support in case my life changed or something went wrong. Which I'm very glad that she did because now that I look back, as much as I thought it wouldn't... MY LIFE DID CHANGE. School, Romeos injury, Moving, Changing university.. and I'm glad I have my family behind me willing to care for him and love him as I would until I get back settled.
For me, a good home is one that promises that the dog they acquire will be loved and cared for it's entire life.
and I think that's more important than some of the other trivial stuff..
Proving in the show ring pretty much holds little to no value to me and alot of the breeds I am interested in. Even some of the companion breeds I would rather see doing sports or therapy work versus showing.
^this. Exactly. haha
But if a person - of any breed - is just 'breeding to breed', I don't agree with that. Atleast have some valid reason. Homes lined up, good dogs, need another dog or two, something legit.
One, herding trials aren't anything like working on a farm doing chores. They can be similiar and while some trials are harder, they are still different.
Doing chores on a farm is more true to what the breed was created to do. I do think herding trials (USBCHA trials) were created originally to be a way to test many dogs on the same level, though. And I do put stock into a dog that has done well in herding trials, but as I learn more and more about the breed, I've come to understand it's not the only way and shouldn't be the only measuring stick - so to speak.
^this. Exactly. haha
But if a person - of any breed - is just 'breeding to breed', I don't agree with that. Atleast have some valid reason. Homes lined up, good dogs, need another dog or two, something legit.
One, herding trials aren't anything like working on a farm doing chores. They can be similiar and while some trials are harder, they are still different.
Doing chores on a farm is more true to what the breed was created to do. I do think herding trials (USBCHA trials) were created originally to be a way to test many dogs on the same level, though. And I do put stock into a dog that has done well in herding trials, but as I learn more and more about the breed, I've come to understand it's not the only way and shouldn't be the only measuring stick - so to speak.
As far as the working thing, when I get a BC I'll be buying a dog from a working breeder. Not a breeder who does trials, because to me, that's sport, not work. A dog that can work day after day herding stock over hard terrain, keeping track of way more sheep than you'll find in a trial, is much more impressive to me than a dog who has 43658755685 herding titles.
It really differs between breeds. I don't want my BC's ancestors to ever have stepped foot into a show ring, but when I get a chi, I want the dogs to be proven in the ring, or at least evaluated by a judge. I'd also love to see agility, obedience, therapy, flyball, or dogs with their CGC. It's not a *necessity* but I'd like to see something extra, that they're out there with their dogs.
It really differs between breeds. I don't want my BC's ancestors to ever have stepped foot into a show ring, but when I get a chi, I want the dogs to be proven in the ring, or at least evaluated by a judge. I'd also love to see agility, obedience, therapy, flyball, or dogs with their CGC. It's not a *necessity* but I'd like to see something extra, that they're out there with their dogs.
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2010
- Messages
- 574
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 16
I think that they ought to be out there titling their dogs, not just "doing something".
I understand the show vs. working dog but if you're not going to show, then WORK and EARN stuff. Not just "doing something" but excelling at something - or don't breed them. Period.
There's billions of run-of-the-mill breeders out there, it takes a lot more than just "doing something" with your dog to be a great breeder and stand out from the crowd.
There's tons more to responsible breeding than having a dog with sex parts.
I understand the show vs. working dog but if you're not going to show, then WORK and EARN stuff. Not just "doing something" but excelling at something - or don't breed them. Period.
There's billions of run-of-the-mill breeders out there, it takes a lot more than just "doing something" with your dog to be a great breeder and stand out from the crowd.
There's tons more to responsible breeding than having a dog with sex parts.
I don't know... To me, a dog that can prance around a confo ring and look pretty doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make me more impressed, and it doesn't turn me off either. It's just another "something" that the breeder does with their dogs. Same with other activities too. I don't care if their dogs are GOOD at agility (unless I'm looking for an agility dog)... I'm just happy to see breeders actively engaged with their dogs. I don't think a dog with a bunch of abbreviations tacked on to their name is any more impressive than the dog that makes visits to hospitals and sits with elderly people. In fact, I am more impressed by the latter because I feel that says more about the personality of the dog. And if I'm just looking for a companion, a good personality is all I need (and health).
At the end of the day: If I like everything else about the breeder, I am not going to cross them off my list just because their dogs are not titled.
At the end of the day: If I like everything else about the breeder, I am not going to cross them off my list just because their dogs are not titled.
There are a couple of dogs I highly admire and covet their bloodlines who don't have a single title to their name. Not every dog has to be heavily titled to be proved breed worthy, but that's a distinction that requires a more intimate knowledge of that specific breed and those particular lines than most people care to acquire.
Part of it may be that I really dont' see myself buying 'just a pet' now or for a long, long time to come but I would personally want titles or a dog that is proven (titles and proven are two different things fwiw). In what depends highly on the breed.
I would not buy a papillon without knowing there were good performance dogs in the lines. Maybe not directly back but I want to see that there are nice ones coming from the lines consistently. There is a distinct style of dog that I want and not everyone is producing them. A lot of paps I meet are too mellow and driveless for what I need. And I really think it's a shame. The drive and brainpower is what to me sets them apart from a lot of other companion breeds and why they're such great sports dogs. I feel that a big part of what makes a papillon a fun dog to own would be missing and I wouldn't want that. I would also not buy a papillon whose breeder didn't show. I know, you can have a companion papillon that is way out of standard, but I just really prefer them to standard (not all show breeders breed dogs I like looks wise but many do, most non-show breeders do not). That doesn't mean I wouldn't adopt a BYB/milled papillon that is way outside of standard, I definitely am planning on at least one oversized rescue papillon. But I wouldn't buy one from a breeder.
Of course any future dogs will be involved in performance most likely.
I would not buy a papillon without knowing there were good performance dogs in the lines. Maybe not directly back but I want to see that there are nice ones coming from the lines consistently. There is a distinct style of dog that I want and not everyone is producing them. A lot of paps I meet are too mellow and driveless for what I need. And I really think it's a shame. The drive and brainpower is what to me sets them apart from a lot of other companion breeds and why they're such great sports dogs. I feel that a big part of what makes a papillon a fun dog to own would be missing and I wouldn't want that. I would also not buy a papillon whose breeder didn't show. I know, you can have a companion papillon that is way out of standard, but I just really prefer them to standard (not all show breeders breed dogs I like looks wise but many do, most non-show breeders do not). That doesn't mean I wouldn't adopt a BYB/milled papillon that is way outside of standard, I definitely am planning on at least one oversized rescue papillon. But I wouldn't buy one from a breeder.
Of course any future dogs will be involved in performance most likely.
Personally I think its wrong to breed for just a pet litter. Regardless of how good the two dogs you breed together (working, show, ect..) there will be pet quality puppies in the litter.
Personally I think there are enough shelter dogs in need of homes. There is no need for a breeder to be producing only pets. If you dont want a rescue go to a breeder and request a pet puppy from a litter.
I also believe that a breeder should be titling their dogs in their chosen venue. In MOST cases. I would not think a breeder was bad if they used their dogs daily (working on the farm BCs, police dogs, ect..), as long as they utilize relevant health testing.
Personally I think there are enough shelter dogs in need of homes. There is no need for a breeder to be producing only pets. If you dont want a rescue go to a breeder and request a pet puppy from a litter.
I also believe that a breeder should be titling their dogs in their chosen venue. In MOST cases. I would not think a breeder was bad if they used their dogs daily (working on the farm BCs, police dogs, ect..), as long as they utilize relevant health testing.
Just had to point that out. Define "doctoring"
Personally I have done alot of stitching on my own dogs. Will do tails and dew claws. Does this count as doctoring?
Yes I will take them to the vet if needed. But I will not shell out the ridiculous prices vets charge for simple things I can take care of myself.
Personally I have done alot of stitching on my own dogs. Will do tails and dew claws. Does this count as doctoring?
Yes I will take them to the vet if needed. But I will not shell out the ridiculous prices vets charge for simple things I can take care of myself.
What do you guys think of say, toy breeds, then, whose primary purpose is to be pets? Is it okay to breed proven healthy dogs if the parents have no titles or accomplishments besides being good family pets? Laur made a good point about Papillons, who are without a doubt the most "sporty" dogs in the toy group, but what about the rest of the group and all of those breeds? Shih tzus? Chihuahuas? Pugs?
I know it's way different in working breeds, but I wonder about the little guys and the purely companion breeds.
I know it's way different in working breeds, but I wonder about the little guys and the purely companion breeds.
I like to see obedience, Therapy dog work (which many toy dogs are great at), or SOMETHING.
For toy dogs, (chihuahuas especially) I needed SOMETHING to show me that the dogs were of sound temperament other than "oh she is really sweet"
All those crazy, biting, growling little dogs on the dog whisperer.. what do their owners ALWAYS SAY about them..
"She is really sweet"
:rofl1:
For toy dogs, (chihuahuas especially) I needed SOMETHING to show me that the dogs were of sound temperament other than "oh she is really sweet"
All those crazy, biting, growling little dogs on the dog whisperer.. what do their owners ALWAYS SAY about them..
"She is really sweet"
:rofl1: