Breeding for sports

Paviche

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Plus there's a huge difference between breeding for a specific look + ability and standardizing is, vs "designer breeds." The "every breed used to be a mix" thing is one of my least favorite arguments. Yeah, but they weren't trying to breed mixes, they were crossbreeding to achieve a specific desired goal. Not even similar to modern day designer dogs, whose goal seems to typically be fluffy and nonshedding and... that's it. I am generalizing here, I know that there are other types of designer dogs, but really. von Stephanitz wanted a medium-large, close coated, prick eared dog with exceptional intelligence, drive and working capability to be used for shepherding and then evolved into protection dogs, patrol dogs, etc etc etc. I would not call that a "designer dog" and the fact that he originally crossbred to achieve those dogs is basically irrelevant because he was going for a very specific goal.
 
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How so, is that a genuine question?

think about how any breed started.


to prev. question
HUH? Just because 2 people have a reason, doesn't mean they are remotely similar. One developed a sturdy working dog capable of bringing down 200+lb sheep that challenged them. Able to work as a moving fence to keep hundreds of large sheep contained. To work well with and independent of the handler and also be able to protect not only the flock, but the herder, home and property as well.

It took the cooperation of hundreds of people across a country carefully selecting and breeding dogs with the traits they desired and in a relatively short time, they had a breed that would breed "true" The developed a parent organization, stud books and a standard.

The other wanted to make up cute names and fluffy dogs they could market to an every increasing marke that doesn't give a **** about anything more than fluff these days. a decade or more later and they're still breeding F1 crosses because they can't make anything past that that will look like anything the public might want to buy. In essence they have failed at every stated goal they may have had and continue to breed mixed breed dogs and slap cute names on them

Yeah, they're totally the same :)
 

OwnedByBCs

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I really hate the whole "all breeds started out as mixes" argument. It is absolutely not applicable to the designer breed argument, because the process is totally different. Labradoodles that are bred are most often gen 1 Poodle x Lab mixes rather than breeding Labradoodles to Labradoodles. How is this an attempt to start a "breed"? They did not develop any sort of a plan as to what the breed would be (is it a companion breed? A working breed? A hunting breed? How does one "prove" a Labradoodle?) , they took the easy way out and just decided to mix poodles and labs for the purpose of having a lab temperament in a hypoallergenic body- which 50% of them don't even have. Genetics don't just work that way, you can't just cherry pick which traits are passed down from the parents- which is why purebred breeding is so much more consistent (if done corectly). This also applies to sport mixes, who are bred to be successful at sports. To me, being "good" at flyball is a pretty complex thing- you need stamina, speed, quick turns, retrieving skills, control, biddability, solid jump skills, and balance... So while it may seem like sport crosses fill that niche, I have to wonder how may sport mixes don't make it. What if you got a BC rear with a more upright Whippet shoulder assembly? Or what if you got the topline of a Staffy and the angles of a Border Collie? My problem with mixing these breeds like it's no big deal is that these breeds were developed for entirely different purposes- and therefore have incredibly different structure and temperaments. What happens to the dogs that get an unfortunate mix of traits (I.E. Dog aggression inherited from the Staffy side, reactivity/shyness inherited from the BC side)? If a sport mix is not cut out for sports, can it be a normal, well adjusted member of society?

The purebred dogs we have today were developed by mixing breeds, yes, but they did it over years and years, with a clear goal in mind, and they achieved that goal by bringing in multiple breeds and really being consistent and strict with their breeding decisions. An example of that in current times is the Silken Windhound- which is already showing a lot of consistency due to the determination of people within the breed.
 
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To be fair, some crosses are surprisingly consistent even as F1s - cockapoos, puggles, and goldendoodles/labradoodles are like that in my experience (and we see a LOT of all three of them up here). And there are breeders trying to establish some of the doodles as a breed with fixed traits.

Realistically, all purebreds DID start out as "mixes" although for some of them IMO it is maybe more more correct to say they started out as "types" that people later refined.

Anyway, the counter argument of "but breeds were created with a goal in mind" always seems a little disingenuous to me because when people DO try to create a new breed then I see a chorus of "there are plenty of breeds out there already to choose from, nobody needs to create more!" Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

As someone else said, I don't really care if the end product is mixed, designer, pure, sport, working, show, whatever... it's more the practices of an individual breeder that I would or wouldn't take issue with.
 

OwnedByBCs

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To be fair, some crosses are surprisingly consistent even as F1s - cockapoos, puggles, and goldendoodles/labradoodles are like that in my experience (and we see a LOT of all three of them up here). And there are breeders trying to establish some of the doodles as a breed with fixed traits.

Realistically, all purebreds DID start out as "mixes" although for some of them IMO it is maybe more more correct to say they started out as "types" that people later refined.

Anyway, the counter argument of "but breeds were created with a goal in mind" always seems a little disingenuous to me because when people DO try to create a new breed then I see a chorus of "there are plenty of breeds out there already to choose from, nobody needs to create more!" Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

As someone else said, I don't really care if the end product is mixed, designer, pure, sport, working, show, whatever... it's more the practices of an individual breeder that I would or wouldn't take issue with.
See, I don't mind new breeds being made, I just feel like doodles and sport mixes aren't new breeds.

I see a lot of sport mixes being bred responsibly, and I have a lot less of an issue with that, but I have yet to see a responsibly bred doodle, cockapoo, puggle, etc.. so, I'm just not convinced.
 

Laurelin

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Cockapoos have been around since the 50s. Both cockapoos and labradoodles have breed clubs. I've seen plenty of doodle and cockapoo breeders that health test.
 

Emily

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We have two lovely Goldendoodles at work from the same breeder a few hours south of here. All breeding dogs are health tested and the breeder screens homes pretty extensively. Both dogs have great temperaments are exactly what their families were looking for, except maybe in coat maintenance.

:yikes: God **** designer dogs!

*beyond caring at this point* lol I even added various poos and doodles to our breed database at work because I got tired of typing "Golden/Poodle." TEH HORRORZ
 

OwnedByBCs

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Cockapoos have been around since the 50s. Both cockapoos and labradoodles have breed clubs. I've seen plenty of doodle and cockapoo breeders that health test.
Maybe I'm just in a bad area, but all of the doodle breeders I've seen around here are typical BYBs who don't health test and don't do anything to prove their dogs. I would be interested in what health testing the breed club recommends, and what the breeders who do health test do. Is it CERF/OFA or are there more specific issues within those mixes?

I'm not saying that it can't be done responsibly, but I am still not convinced that it is a good idea. I know plenty of responsibly bred sport mixes, like I said, and while I accept that these breeders are responsible and ethical, I still don't agree with the premise. Kind of like being against show breeding or sport breeding within purebreds- you can recognize when someone is being responsible, but you don't agree with the decisions that led them to breed in the first place. You know?
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I have no issue with the creation of mixes nor new breeds (which designer dogs are not) but I'm not sure how a GSD is a designer dog, that is where I am seeking clarity.
 
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See, I don't mind new breeds being made, I just feel like doodles and sport mixes aren't new breeds.
Oh I don't think it's correct to call F1 mixes breeds, either, but I don't really have an objection to or problem with them being bred.

I don't even get all that annoyed by the cutesy names anymore, especially for the ones that seem to mix relatively consistently. I can have a pretty good idea of what I'm probably going to encounter when I see the names cockapoo or doodle or puggle.

My annoyance level depends on the day and the level of cutesy, though.
 

Fran101

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I have no problem with any of it as long as it's done responsibly

and that means not LYING to puppy buyers

I am talking to you sports breeders selling puppies that are DEFINITELY going to grow up to be super star agility dogs or whatever dogs (how would you know?! this is an 8 week old puppy!)
I am talking to you doodle breeders selling doodles that CERTAINLY will not shed and won't give allergies (again, how would you know..this is a puppy coat!)

and that right there is my biggest problem with breeders that are filling such a small niche. They have buyers for the IDEAL that the mix/very specific thing is going to create
but sometimes there aren't enough for the pups that don't. So many lie (or butter up the truth) and that isn't ok

For the low drive puppies, for the puppy with the coat that may end up shedding (not that you can even tell really)
so many breeders just..don't mention it.

and that pisses me off.
 

Emily

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I have no problem with any of it as long as it's done responsibly

and that means not LYING to puppy buyers

I am talking to you sports breeders selling puppies that are DEFINITELY going to grow up to be super star agility dogs or whatever dogs (how would you know?! this is an 8 week old puppy!)
I am talking to you doodle breeders selling doodles that CERTAINLY will not shed and won't give allergies (again, how would you know..this is a puppy coat!)

and that right there is my biggest problem with breeders that are filling such a small niche. They have buyers for the IDEAL that the mix/very specific thing is going to create
but sometimes there aren't enough for the pups that don't. So many lie (or butter up the truth) and that isn't ok

For the low drive puppies, for the puppy with the coat that may end up shedding (not that you can even tell really)
so many breeders just..don't mention it.

and that pisses me off.
ITA and if I have one real gripe about Doodles it's the "they're ALL hypoallergenic and non-shedding" and the "they have all the BEST parts of Labs AND Poodles" as if that's how it automatically works.
 

MandyPug

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ITA and if I have one real gripe about Doodles it's the "they're ALL hypoallergenic and non-shedding" and the "they have all the BEST parts of Labs AND Poodles" as if that's how it automatically works.
One labradoodle breeder around here talks about her dogs having "fleece" instead of fur or hair... The funny thing is she always comments on how great Izzie's "fleece" is. If Izzie's coat is what they're going for, I'm not sure they are breeding for the right coat LOL.
 

Emily

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One labradoodle breeder around here talks about her dogs having "fleece" instead of fur or hair... The funny thing is she always comments on how great Izzie's "fleece" is. If Izzie's coat is what they're going for, I'm not sure they are breeding for the right coat LOL.
LOL!!! Yikes... Her fleece...

Also, attention all Goldendoodle breeders: Please inform your buyers that they're likely purchasing a dog who will a high maintenance coat that matts easily, and that said dog will be attracted to water most of the time. We see so many matted, smelly Doodles in grooming at work.
 

Xandra

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I have no issue with the creation of mixes nor new breeds (which designer dogs are not) but I'm not sure how a GSD is a designer dog, that is where I am seeking clarity.
I suppose because it was "designed" for a purpose? lol

When I heard the phrase "designer" dog, I thought it was referring to a mix bred to be fashionable and marketed to trendy people. The purpose of breeding them is to sell them.


GSDs were fine-tuned for herding and other work over generations. The purpose of breeding them is to hopefully produce something equal to or better at the job than you already have.


ETA

And while we're on the subject, in my real, day-to-day life I don't really care what people breed just as long as they're honest etc.

I'd rather there be a REASON these dogs are mixed, other than you think you can market them. Like, you should have reasons they will make a good family pet (which to me means, in 5 years if you take away sentimentality and attachment, is the family still glad they got the dog?).

I have to question the wisdom behind something like a siberpoo. Is it meant to be a hypoallergenic dog with a husky temperament? For whom? Something who likes huskies and is allergic? Or was it done just because huskies and doodles are attractive?
 
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When I heard the phrase "designer" dog, I thought it was referring to a mix bred to be fashionable and marketed to trendy people. The purpose of breeding them is to sell them.
Well, sometimes. Sometimes it's to develop companion dogs. (This could easily shoot off into the old "is breeding for 'companionship' a legitimate purpose" tangent, which I realize not all people agree about... but at least some people breeding them and some people buying them think it is.)

GSDs were fine-tuned for herding and other work over generations. The purpose of breeding them is to hopefully produce something equal to or better at the job than you already have.
Again, sometimes. Sometimes it's just to sell them.


Again, it gets back to the individual breeder's motivations and practices for me rather than necessarily what they are breeding. Breeding pure bred dogs or designer dogs doesn't automatically put someone into the "for a purpose" or "to sell them" category for me.
 
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Oh I don't think it's correct to call F1 mixes breeds, either, but I don't really have an objection to or problem with them being bred.
I have Mutts and I love them, I call them just that though, Mutts, what is wrong with them just being mutts? When did it become shameful to own a mutt? Especially if it didnt come from some horribly abusive home? Would I ever buy a mutt from a breeder? Probably not, and as much as I detest people who BYB (anything weather its dogs, cats, rats) I cant control what others spend their money on. But just realize that you bought a mutt.



LOL!!! Yikes... Her fleece...
Also, attention all Goldendoodle breeders: Please inform your buyers that they're likely purchasing a dog who will a high maintenance coat that matts easily, and that said dog will be attracted to water most of the time. We see so many matted, smelly Doodles in grooming at work.
They obviously need to watch this wonderful video on how to groom a Purebred Multi-generational Australian Labradoodle :rofl1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWNk9G0PnrQ
 

Laurelin

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I do not consider known crossbreds to be 'mutts'. Mutt to me = unknown. And f1 labradoodle is a mixed breed or a crossbred dog. But the parentage is known. Big difference there.
 
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crossbreed, mixed breed, mutt, its all the same to me, no difference, weather you know or not, its still a mutt. If people ask what Gage is I say mutt, if they ask if I know what he is Ill say Mastiff Rotty mix, but no was will I ever say English Mastweiller. Likewise Diesel is a Mutt, he might be Yorkie Poodle mix, but he is still a mutt.

My Shiba Inu were purebred Shiba Inu.
 

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