Quick question about ears :)

Dekka

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#21
Personally as ears set does not affect anything much other than cosmetics, I really don't see the big deal. When Scandal was little and I could tell her ears might go 'funky' I thought about taping them. But I knew she was too small to breed, so I didn't bother. She is so out of standard is so many other ways, why not the ears too :D.

If the set of the ears affected the working ability, health or temperament of the dog, then I might get concerned with people breeding them, but really IMO as long as the dog has ears, its all good.
 

Dizzy

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#22
Yeah, thats how I pretty much feel about it. Breeding a dog that knowingly has a fault. I guess we might as well breed GSDs with floppyish ears if it can be fixed with tapping. I dont agree with that. How is that bettering the breed?
How is having pointy ears BETTERING a breed?

It's just aesthetics.
 

Buddy'sParents

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#23
I have to agree with Dizzy, it's aesthetics.

If a dog does not naturally possess the traits which make it a top notch specimen then that settles any type of dispute regarding breeding potential, in my mind. But then again, I'm not in to the showing aspect of dogs. I want them to be members of my family and a part of my heart.. and I couldn't care less if Bella's snout is half an inch off from show standard! :p :)
 

Laurelin

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#24
That's a really good question. My first reaction was to say that it wasn't wrong, but really it's pretty much the same as the taping in the end. At the some time I wouldn't expect a breeder to intentionally try not to fix the ears when they are cropped, like say that the ears aren't right so crop them so they don't look right....

Laurelin, is there a real reason that the shelties are supposed to have folded ears? I really couldn't imagine the way their ears stand affecting their working ability...


I don't really understand this train of thought. The way I see it, it's altering the dogs appearance regardless of breed. Could you explain a little more please.
Well, paps are all about the ears, no? Papillon ear taping would be required to hold the ears in place. If a pap's ears aren't strong enough to be erect then you probably shouldn't breed. Paps are different because most dogs have the correct ear placement. Shelties do not have correct ears nearly as often. Taping papillon ears is very frowned upon.

And before someone asks there IS a difference between a phalene and a papillon with incorrectly folded ears.

I think most of the ear tipping in shelties is aesthetics. Many of the old dogs I see in pictures have small erect ears, though many have semi-erect ears as well.

Sheltie ears also go through cycles in the ring sometimes. Back when Trey was bred, it was more common to tape so the ears folded lower. Recently it was just the very tips of the ears although I hear lately it's been more towards the more tipped ears again.

ETA: Okay I found this site again. All the dogs on here seem to have tipped ears so I guess there was a purpose.

http://www.shelties.nl/history/index.html

It's an interesting read.
 
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#26
How is having pointy ears BETTERING a breed?

It's just aesthetics.

Just playing devils advocate here, since obviously I am not a shepherd owner, but....

These dogs were created for work. Their hearing was essential, and though I'm not sure if it's been scientifically proven, it makes sense that their large, pricked ears would channel in sound better than they would if they were floppy.

For people who still breed shepherds for the purpose of working, I would imagine having the dog function 100% involves the total package, including ears.

Again, just playing devils advocate and throwing out an idea.
 

PWCorgi

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#27
^I seem to remember that there are some SAR shepherds that have floppy ears.

I definitally understand what you are saying.
 

Beanie

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#28
I got out my copy of Sheltie Talk (the "sheltie bible")to see if it would give any insight to the shape of sheltie ears, 'cause I was quite curious about the function after reading the discussion here. Here is what it has to say:

"The correct Sheltie ear is beautiful. It contributes to a soft, intelligent expression and gives an alert look to the entire dog. It is set high, opening forward, semi-erect. The top third of the leather breaks forward with no inclination to turn to the sides. The ear itself is small in relation to the head; the leather strong, yet flexible, and of medium thickness.
Shelties have one of the more functional types of ears of dogdom. The semi-erect ear is useful as well as being aesthetically pleasing. The erect base of the ear works as a scope to trap sounds, providing very acute hearing. The set of the ear allows for mobility, and again, the ability to catch more sound waves. The forward break causes rain to run off, protecting the delicate inner ear without the necessity of pinning the ear (which handicaps the hearing).
....
The ear which never needs to be corrected is convenient; and more important, it is correct in a breeding dog. For decades the original working dogs exhibited a fair percentage of individuals with natural semi-erect ears. Can we not expect at least as much from our show dogs who have become so much more standardized in other aspects?

HEREDITY VS. ARTIFICIAL CORRECTION
Unfortunately for the breeder, ears can be difficult. They are influenced not only by heredity, but also by emotional stress, teething, puberty, coat loss, temperature, hormone changes, calcium assimilation, humidity, and age. And to top this off, they rarely inherit as predicted.
...
A few breeders feel strongly that ears should never be touched. By showing and eventually breeding dogs that have had their ears fixed, these breeders believe, the occrance of problem ears in the breed will increase, while breeding only those individuals with perfectly natural ears will help to breed out the problem. Unfortunately this is not always feasible. For one reason, dogs from several generations of natural-eared Shelties may show up with problem ears. For another, ears are affected by physiological, environmental, and stress factors. Furthermore, if you have achieved many goals in your breeding program, should you eliminate a dog with incorrect ears and thus lose some more important virtues that you have gained? Of course not. A more realistic position, it seems to me, would be to value and breed for correct ears. Apply corrective measures to those with less than perfect ears, and eliminate from a breeding program any dog that consistently produces very low or very persistent prick ears."

I agree with everything the authors have to say. Taping or glueing sheltie ears does not hurt the dog, and to eliminate a great dog because of ears that didn't come out of mama as perfect just seems... well, not that great of an idea. I do believe that all effort should be made to breed them to a natural, perfect set, but it's just not 100% realistic IMHO.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#29
I picked breeds that really don't have to worry about that sort of thing...and I won't pick at the breeders of those breeds because if I cared...I'd be in the breed doing something about it.
 
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#30
I have taped the ears of all of my dogs. My reasoning is, I want to do everything I can to help those ears stay nice, because I don't like the idea of cropping for the show ring. (My personal preference. I'm not against others doing that if they choose.) My suspicion is that my dogs would've ended up with nice ears anyway -- many of their siblings have nice ears, and weren't taped -- but when they start teething, and those ears go wonky, it just makes me nervous.
 
S

Squishy22

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#31
By the same token, you can 'fix' a lot with cropping as well. ;)

So say you have a pit or a dobe with a poor earset but when you crop and tape it is correct. Is that wrong as well?

To me shelties have enough problems in other areas and there are too many dogs with incorrect ears that you should tape just to be safe. I think it'd be silly to cut out all dogs with prick ears.

Now, if you have to tape papillons, then there's something wrong.

So it's really a breed by breed thing.
I see cropping as way different than tapping. Yes, you would never know how a dogs natural ears are if they are cropped, but I see cropping as a tradition. If a breed was traditionally cropped as part of the breed, then I dont see it as fixing a problem. Where as in tapping I see it as fixing natural ears... trying to make them grow the way YOU want them to grow as opposed to how they naturally grow.

With that said. I'm not a tapping expert. Its just kinda how I see it. I have no idea how much you can actually change a dogs ears from tapping.
 
S

Squishy22

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#32
Lets say there are two perfect german shepherds competing against each other. One wins over the other because the owner just happens to know how to tape its ears better than the owner of the other dog...

Does that happen? Is that fair?
 

Laurelin

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#33
Likewise you have two pits...

They are identical down to faulty ears. One was cropped, though, so the incorrect ears aren't seen. So that one wins over the other.

It's the same thing.
 

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