J's Crew

As I stated in the other thread, I have produced NOTHING of merit in my one surviving litter which was born in 1996.

My decision to breed my bitch who has ONE elbow graded DJD1 from OFA, and who was graded as NORMAL in both elbows from OVC, has not been made lightly.

There has been significant interest in this breeding, and at this time I am not taking any more reservations for it.

You would not purchase a puppy from it, nor would you choose to breed her if she were yours. That's fine. Your choice, and your decision.

Breeding decisions should not be based on ONE ITEM. The decision to breed this bitch and the responsibility that goes with it, and the results of it as time goes by, lie with me and her breeder, and no one else.

It is the consensus of a majority of people in this breed that eliminating all dogs who have an elbow rating of DJD grade 1 could be DISASTROUS to this gene pool down the road. NO breed club globally excludes Rottweilers graded DJD1 in the elbows from breeding. Not one. Not Germany, not Sweden, Denmark, all of whom are well known for their stringent requirements for breeding.

It pays to be careful with a tarbrush. It's hard to use one without getting a little on yourself.

You should also be careful with what you state. My bitch does NOT have joint problems. According to OVC in Canada she is normal, and I do not appreciate your characterization of her as having "joint problems".

She is working regularly over jumps in obedience, and being road worked daily, and she is dead sound, as she always has been. I think if she had "joint problems" I would know it by now.

Your right, my choice. I was responding to a statement that congratulated you on producing fine specimines of your breed. I simply stated my opinion. That's allowed, right?

So, since you want to lay it all out on the table, why after OFA stated she had Degenerative Joint Disease did you go to OVC? Maybe because they are more leaniante (sp)?

And I never said she wasn't sound. But she does have a long line of family with DJD, correct?

*edited*

Breeding 2 clear OFA dogs does NOT produce all Clear OFA dogs.
It is sibling reports and many generations of cleared dogs _that help REDUCE the HD in pups.

OFA clearings are done on 3 Vets opinion. 2 Vets say Fail one says pass the dog fails and vs versa.

They rate BOTH hips together for a rating.

That is why I like Penn hip.

Breeding should be done on a whole package .
Temperament is the #1 killer of most of these big breeds .

Dogs with a borderline rating in one hip does NOT mean they wlll ever have CLINCAL HD. Moderate and or or high ratings are not to be bred.

I have a female with GDC one hip clear one hip grad 1 out of 3.

She produced OFA goods and NO HD in any litter and she is alive and well today at age 10 Working dog.

Now these are facts im not getting between 2 people who may want to battle this out.

Breeding a <clinically> HD affected dog or any dog with inherted disease that requires the intervention of Vets to live is WRONG.

Breeding a dog with many qualities PROVEn with hips scores that are low or too high ( depending on co) is based on that breeders decision and if they stand by the pups they produce _ .

Either way the fact that you guys are xraying and asking the correct questions are a great thing. Missing in action in rare breeds who are bred with NOthing > NO show work ofa or tests.

My question which I can not ask in rare breeds is .
How is the siblings ratings from this failed OFA dog? and what is behind this dog? in HD clearances?
That will tell us all a much clearer picture.

Anyone can go to OFA and check her background.

Since elbow screening only BEGAN in 1990, you can bet every Rottweiler walking has a long line of family with DJD.

As you have stated before on this very forum, her health records are an open book.

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1176411#animal

http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?appnum=1176411#animal

Hummmm

I don't know Jack about Show dogs.. what I do know... me being a working dog buyer/trainer would never choose Penny or the Bloodline. I've told you that before. You think my opinion is scrap and that's ok.
You accomplished alot with Penny you should be happy with that, I'm sure all your hard work and time will pay you off when you breed her and sell the pups. What else would you do to compensate your hard work and energies for all her Titles. To spay her wouldn't justify your cause. But doing so would make you appear Reputable to the non-breeder like myself.
Just my opinion again.
I believe this is the first person who ever challanged your ethics in my presence... and I'm glad.. it's good for your closed-mindedness.

Sorry anyone who SHOWS works and or Health and Temperament tests a bitch . They know you do NOT make your money back when breeding.

It is the people who make a top stud champion and some want the money back by studding the dog out to every dam bitch who is willing to pay the fee with no regards to improving just making back the money.

So sorry those statements come from people who never spent $500 on a show weekend, X 10 show weekends or 20 or even 5. + $150 in gase to get to a temperament test, or $300 for Penn hip $150 for OFA.

People who work show and test do this to BETTER the breed NOT to
get compensated" for the money they spent.

Even thou breaking even would be NICE one day.

This is if someone has 1 or few litters a year.

If someone is breeding 25 pups a year that is a awefull lot .
I say 25 cause I dont know how big Rottie litters can be .
That 25 could be 2 litters.

Maybe she sould spay her start over with another line, get a passing OFA
and find out the dog carries a disease only passed in the bloodline as a carrier.

Now I do not know any of you but I will say this NOT liking someone is fine.
But assuming things about show work or ofa without direct knowledge is just dog politics based on opinions of who likes who not facts.

You should comment, Melissa.

So I should spay my multi UKC BIS, multi UKC High in Trial Multi BOS BOB winning AKC CH at 25 months hip, eye, heart, thyroid, and, according to OVC, ELBOW normal bitch because OFA says she has one elbow grade 1 DJD?

I am not closed minded.

I have consulted numerous people who have more knowledge and experience in this breed than I probably will ever have, and asked for their honest opinions on breeding this bitch. I can count on one hand the people who would not breed her if she were theirs. Fact is, she is mine, and she will be bred.

As I have said before, the proof is in the pudding. Get back to me in 5 years or so, and I'll let you know if breeding her was the right decision. And if it was NOT the right decision, I won't have any trouble admitting it, and telling exactly why.

All persons who acquire a puppy bred by me will be required to test hips, elbows, eyes and heart, and to report and fully disclose all results to the OFA data base for all eyes to see, and so that others can do proper research when they try to plan a breeding.

My disaster litter was from 2 parents certified to be OFA elbow normal. I have a severely dysplastic bitch who is lame, VERY lame, at FIVE years old that I am looking at making a heart breaking decision for much sooner than I have prayed I would. She is also from both parents OFA elbow normal.

There are no guarantees in breeding dogs. Not ever. For ME personally, and apparently for the interested prospective puppy buyers, her virtues outweigh the negative of one elbow being DJD1.

I am comfortable with breeding this bitch. Her breeder is comfortable with her being bred. I am within the Code of Ethics of ANY Rottweiler club globally making the decision to breed this bitch.

You all can hash out my ethics all you like here, or elsewhere, or anywhere. What happens with the progeny of this breeding will also be an open book.

So keep a check on the OFA site in a couple years. You can enjoy with me as results come in and are posted on the puppies that result.

hummm

I would say who likes Quality in a Dog... not who likes who.

DJD1 for my needs isn't Quality, among many other things.

Now if it's Quality for a AKC Show Dog.. then so be it.

Great post red please if you see me at a UKC show in NY, MI, Oh or Canada pls say hi I have Central Asian SHepherd dogs .
It would be a honor to talk breeding with you.

You are NOT judged by your mistakes but how you correct them...
~ unknown

Hummm

Penny's a great dog, I'm sure you have her in your best interest. Good Luck with what you choose. Melissa.

Don't patronize me, Melissa.

Pick one side of the fence or the other.

Hummm

What happened to Angel Chicken's post? Or was this thread a set up for yours truely? :yikes:

First of all, pardon my ignorance, but what effect does DJD have on the dog? It isn't like hip dysplasia, so what is it? Arthritis? At what age does it begin to take its toll on the dog?

Back OT . . . I think that those who don't breed have some sort of misconception as to what actually goes into a breeding. Wouldn't it be lovely if the breed was populated with perfect dogs? Anyone could breed whatever they want without having to weigh the risks and benefits? If a breed without heritable health or temperament problems exists, please let me know because I want to breed THOSE dogs!

Stop looking at this from a buyer's perspective and look at it from a breeder's perspective. Did you know that the average "lifespan" for a breeder is 6 years? That's usually after a few litters, and after people realize that they cannot produce perfection, which buyers insist on.

A practice of working through certain problems while preserving and improving on positive effects on the breed is MUCH better for the breed than a policy of automatic exclusion. There are many dogs with faults that should not be excluded from the gene pool because they posess outstanding qualities that define the breed and need to be passed on. It is up to the breeder to choose whether or not their focus is to be on the individuals or the breed as a whole. If it's on the individual, the goal being not to produce "perfect" dogs without any problems whatsoever, the gene pool will suffer. If it's on the breed as a whole, some affected dogs will undoubtedly be produced. That is how it goes.

So, what matters more? The breed or a litter? Redyre knows her breed and she knows Penny's virtues and flaws. I trust that she will choose a mate for Penny that compliments her and is not affected with DJD.

And, since I can see this coming: No, I am not saying that dogs with hip dysplasia or more serious, crippling afflictions should be bred. Don't twist this post out of context please.

DJD is Elbow dysplasia. Penny's recent relatives have it, all within the last couple of generations. If breeding to a dog with excellent elbows, then why have I heard you would consider breeding any of Penny's progeny to Shaka? Another dog with DJD?

But to each their own. JMO, why breed a dog with DJD when there is another one just as good without it? And there are PLENTY. Anyone that wants to do the research can find out for themselves.

And yes, with ANY breeding there can be problems. But why increase your chances? The purpose in health testing is to not only see what you have as a tool, but to avoid dogs that have health problems. Eh, maybe my standards are to high for some.

And just to clarify, I have many friends that are responsible Rottweiler breeders that wouldn't breed a dog with DJD. More than I can count on all my fingers and toes.

Heard heard heard.

Like I have said NUMEROUS TIMES.

You are not interested in a puppy from my bitch. SO might I suggest you keep your nose focused on your own business.

Oh now......careful, your nasty side that gets you banned from many forums is starting to come out. Tsk tsk.........

BTW, MY business is rescuing Rottweilers. Therefore your breeding becomes MY business.

Yikes, this is looking rather nasty... :yikes:

~Tucker

Not my intention at all. I am simply VERY interested in the health, temperament, and type of Rottweilers.