Luke is growling when in crate with frozen kong

Wrigley was a "rumbler". At first I though he was growling, but then I realized it was this low "growl" only when he exhaled. He would take a big breath in, and then with mouth closed and all, make this growly sound deep in his throat. That dog did it all the time. Sit on his couch? Rumble, rumble, rumble, Pet him while he was napping? Rumble, rumble, rumble. Look at him when he didn't want to be looked at? Rumble, rumble, rumble. But then again, he would jump up on the couch by you, put his head in your lap, wag his tail........and rumble, rumble, rumble. :rofl1:

He definitely was somethin'.

As far as the cage guarding....the thing is, she can put her hand right in the crate. It's like the dog growls or some variation of that, but only when she is near, but hasn't gone into the crate with her hand. So, my idea is that once the hand is in the crate (territory or food) the dog has resigned himself that..."Oh well, I guess it's not so bad after all" or he's not really worried about it at all. (maybe it just appears to be that way). When she is near the crate and hasn't "intruded" yet, the dog growls. So, could it be that at this point, he's anticipating something that in his mind is going to be worse than it really is? Is he not sure at this stage that his stuff is really truly safe, but not so worried as to bite? Whatever it is he has in his mind (we can never know for sure) I'd still take the pre-caution of re-conditioning him to being oh so glad that you come near because it means super good stuff is going to happen...super good treats and that you're not taking his stuff away, but bringing better stuff. And that you control those things.

Like I said, I'd practice the give and take game in various locations so he can generalize better to different contexts and locations...that it isn't just the crate that all this "activity" takes place near. It happens everywhere. LOL. Try feeding him in other areas of the house. See what he does when you come near his food. If he stiffens up or growls, he is showing you he's nervous about losing his food. Don't take it away though...don't harass him when he's eating UNLESS...you don't give him ownership of the bowl by putting all his food in and leaving the bowl in his possession. (again...it has nothing to do with respect. Dogs aren't hardwired to share their food and respect anyone who threatens their survival) Instead, just a handful, then another handful. Then you own and control the food. When you keep your hand on the food, it's yours. When he has food in a bowl and your hand isn't holding the bowl, he owns it. Once you take your hand off the bowl, it's his and he has every right (in doggie culture) to defend it. It's up to us to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it behooves them big time to tolerate and even love people around their valuables.

Haha...missed some posts about the rumbling. LOL. I can relate. Jose` is a big rumbler but it's not centered around food. (he can't even take the time to breathe when he's eating) He rumbles to get my attention when he's feeling playful. And he growls and warbles when he's just being silly and goofy. That is accompanied by a big play bow and a waggy tail. He looks at me with those mischieveous eyes and makes sudden pouncy movements. It's too cute. I've been trying to get this on cue for a long time. The cue is "talk to me." But so far, we haven't made much progress. He has to be in just the right mood. LOL.

Lol sounds exactly like Morrison. At first I thought it was growling too. And then learned thats just anouther way he communicates. Not too different from my dads Husky who makes all kinds of weird "aroo" sounds and rumbles.

And you think he's growling at you, right? Bailey will sometimes get growly with his toys when he plays with them (especially when he rolls on them) -- it's a happy noise.

I think having a trainer watch the behavior (in addition to taking the steps others have suggested with regard to resource guarding) is a good idea -- it'll be good to get a better idea about what is going on in his little puppy mind.

It's so hard over the Internet, isn't it. When we can't actually see the dog and what he's doing. (Maybe a video?) Even then sometimes, it's hard to tell. Dogs definitely use their voices (growls, warbles, rumbles, squeaks, howls) for all kinds of reasons. Not every growl is necessarily a warning or threat. Maybe he's saying, "Hi Mom! Look what I have. What else are you bringing in here?" LOL.

Jose` struts when he has his Nyla bone or sock in his mouth. He totally looks like he is very proud and wants to show it to anyone who will watch. His whole gait changes, his chin goes down and he often brings the toy very close to my face if I'm lying down. He holds it over me like, "Look Mom! See? See?" Along with that strut comes all kinds of growl sounds. He's not protecting it at all. He couldn't care less if someone takes it. That just means they're going to play with him. I grab his toys when he has them in his mouth and either play tug or pretend I'm going to take it and I make growly noises too. Sometimes I ask him to "give" and then I toss it for him. He's positive that any grabbing of his stuff means the fun is about to begin.

So, it just depends on so much. Do you have a video? Is it possible to see the dog as well as hear him...or is that too hard to capture on video? Maybe he'd stop doing it anyhow, if you're all set up with the camera.

Or it could just be "open the **** door, Mom"

AH. I remember going through this with Teagan. She was not kennel guarding, but the first time I ever gave her a bully stick and I went near her she covered it with her head and growled at me. well I told her "NO!!" right away very loud and clear to know I was not happy about her growling at me and after that she never did that again.

I hope you get some help with this Becca as I am sure its an eerie feeling when your sweet, cute puppy starts growling at you

So far you've been lucky. You supressed that behavior of growling, at least thus far. But in many, many cases, that punishing the growl backfires and the next time the dog's resources are threatened, he doesn't growl. He bites. It turned out that you haven't been growled at again, but is the dog feeling any less concerned about having her valuables taken away? Maybe you've shown her later on that you won't take her bone. How is she if you need to take something very high value out of her mouth?

And of course, depending on temperament, breed type and individual, some dogs will back down easily and never give their owner any further problems. But there are those that will only back down temporarily or not at all. So, prevention is the best policy IMO. That is...to condition a dog to enjoy having humans near his stuff because one never knows how any particular dog is going to react or process that kind of feedback over the long term. Punishment should never be used to treat aggression. In this case, "aggression."

It's a fine line, Dober, and as individual as the dog.

When Cleo air snapped at me when I was transporting her, if I had let her get by with it and hadn't turned right around and told her I wasn't putting up with that kind of nonsense I'd never have been able to do anything with her. BUT -- after I did that, I let her know we were okay, because once she chilled back out in the seat behind me in the truck (cab and a half, talk about tight quarters with a strange Fila, lol!), even though she was still wary, I went back to opening the SlimJim, talking to her the whole time in a normal voice, and gave it to her, not all at once, but she had to eat it a small piece at a time from my hands, letting her know that she was going to have to trust me, but showing her that I was going to trust her in return.

Sometimes you have to get the message across that snarkiness just will not fly.

It was a calculated risk in that case, but if I had let her get by with it I don't think I'd have been able to work with her, or at least not without more drama. I had to BELIEVE that I was in control of the situation strongly enough that Cleo believed it too, but without playing that silly-assed dominance bullshit. We established a base line of mutual trust and respect that we could work forward from.

Oh I agree that there was probably a better way of dealing with her growling at me, back then I was just learning and still am learning on how to deal with different situation with dogs. And I am leaning heap amout of stuff from you guys. You guys are life savers Especially now will Emme who is totally different that Teagan.

To answer your question. I can take anything away from Teagan whenever I want. I could take it away using my own teeth if I needed to, although I would never need to do that now would I :rofl1: I also have taught her fantastic bite inhibition, which probably helps.

She does not feel the need to resource guard because I dont take things away from her for no apparent reason. She is happy to chew a bully stick right beside me on the couch. And if I do take a bully stick away all I say is "drop it or leave it" and she lets it go and I can take it but I always give her a toy right after and play with her a bit.

I'll post here what I posted on my pit bull forums (someone suggested the book "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson?):

He'll growl ONLY in the crate WHEN his kong is in there and the door is shut.
Those things all have to occur, or there are NO issues at all.

I can hold it and he'll eat from it nicely, or he'll try to grab it from me and take off with it.
Outside of the crate, I can take it away from him with no issue.

I don't know if it's a combo of crate guarding and food/resource guarding, but those things (in my first sentence) all have to happen for him to growl.

He doesn't growl at me if it's a toy (at least he hasn't as of yet) or anything other than a frozen kong.

I can train both he and Ophie next to each other, treats given, and no food aggression.
At all.

Whatever the issue is, it's definitely related to the crate AND the kong.
I have to go back and read some of the replies as I haven't made it through all of the thread.


I know I probably shouldn't have taken his kong from him the first time, but I wasn't thinking correctly. I was stupid and thought, "Perhaps he's not really growling at me. Maybe I can try to take his kong and see what he does..."
And I got SUPER lucky.
Because had it been solely JUST a resource guarding issue with the kong, then I could have gotten hurt.
But since I believe it has something to do with the kong AND the crate door being shut (a combination, maybe of crate AND food guarding?), I was ok.

It may be that is one of his quirks and it's as simple as giving him something other than a kong in the crate, but it would be best if he can learn that he's not going to be deprived because the crate door is closed.

It might be as simple as pointing out to the silly lout that as long as the crate door is CLOSED, he CAN'T lose the kong :doh:

LOL. I tell Ares that every night when he's grumbly during dinner time. He has yet to figure it out.

And yea, while he can't lose the kong, he also can't escape with (or even without) the kong and that's the part he does know.

TBH, I don't know how much I'd worry about it if it's truly ONLY when all those factors come together. I would work to be sure it never progresses to other situations, and I would drop treats into the crate whenever I went near it just because it can't hurt, but I wouldn't stress. I leave my crew alone when they're crated, and especially if they have food/treats/toys in there also. That's their time to be able to enjoy what they have without worries.

See that's my concern is that this growling and guarding from the crate with the door shut will progress to other areas/situations.

I had to crate the pups a bit ago, and I walked up to Luke with pieces of training kibble, and hand-fed him through the crate door.
He was totally fine with it. No growling when I fed Ophie some through her crate door.
No growling when I fed Ophie and looked at him.
He took the pieces nicely from my fingers.

I know what you mean Renee. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do at the time. I've had plenty of occassions in the past where I told a dog, "Hey! Quit!" (to take care of an urgent situation at hand) But then I knew I had to go back to square one and work on showing the dog that whatever it is he had his "panties in a twist" (I hate that expression) is really nothing more than a figment of his imagination. LOL. They're so easy to brainwash.:rofl1:

And you're so right. The individual dog has to be taken into consideration. However....(you knew that was going to come out of my mouth, didn't you) dogs are still animals and they're all the same species with similar tendencies, stemming from instincts that they all have to one degree or another. And history shows us that there are certain things we do, where there are odds that work in or against our favor and certain outcomes that are very typical. Some of them are almost predictable. But it's really hard to know exactly just how any dog will be affected because they're not really static ever. They may have had a rotten day and are stressed out to the hilt and what might not have riled them up one day, does that day. (just like with us) So that's why my stance is to err on the side of caution. But I can tell from your posts AND from the fact that you have filas, (lol) that you understand them and instinctively know how to balance them out just so.

I think I'd stop the kongs for a bit and see if it helps him avoid the behavior--at least until you can get your trainer's thoughts on the matter.

Fozzie used to guard his raw bones from me, as a puppy. I was also VERY offended and hurt and concerned, until I realized he was just being insecure and it was my job to make him feel secure and safe.

I used hot dogs or cheetos to trade him. Lots and lots and lots of trading! Make it a fun game. Give him something super low value... like a Kong full of kibble, and throw him a hotdog. When he goes for the hotdog, grab the Kong, put a string cheese in it, tell him he's a good boy and give it back. It also helps to teach him really good self control. Make him lay down and wait for a few minutes before he's allowed to take his food/chew/kong. It will help him realize that YOU are the benevolent food provider, and YOU give him lots of good things, but he has to be polite about taking it and get permission first.

"MINE!" is an awesome book!!!! I highly recommend it.

Ok, I am going to get MINE! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs.

Should I also get "FIGHT! A Practical Guide to the Treatment of Dog-Dog Aggression[/u]?

And The Culture Clash book as well???

If I buy all three of those then I'll get free shipping from Amazon.
But are those books worth the read?

I know a LOT of people praise Jean Donaldson, but I wasn't sure.
I know Patricia McConnell's book "The other End of the Leash" taught me soooo much about dogs and how they communicate differently from humans.
And it taught me that in a matter of a few pages.

Sounds like you're doing everything right and she has let go of the notion that you're any threat. And that bite inhibition is so important. Way to go! Some dogs just have a soft mouth naturally and some can be barracudas. So, it's good to work on that when they're pups.

Oh gosh! Just like anything, this dog stuff is always a learning thing. We're all still learning. I try (doesn't always happen) to learn something new every day by reading a little twist on something or reading a whole new concept or method.

I was very, very bossy with my dogs when I was younger. I mean, I fell for the "gotta show 'em whose boss" routine or they'll take over the company. This was the only game in town. I wasn't particularly harsh, (loved them too much for that) but I was bossy Bessy. It's only been in the past decade and a half or so where I've put some of my previous animal behavior schooling to work. It's funny....I went to school, but didn't really apply "Skinnerisms" to dog training or to my horses for that matter until I started practicing what I read later on. There it was for all to see and yet, the dominance panacea rolled right along. I've only been training using pos. R for I'd say about 13-15 years or so, my own dogs, and more recently with other peoples' dogs. And all along, and even still, I have to fight some of those old, more compulsive impulses that pop up from time to time. It's probably easier to start out not having any or not much experience and learn the "right" way from the get go, except for the fact that it takes time to get to really know dogs. But I have trained (or interacted) with dogs in a more dominant/coercive way and with positive reinforcement type methods. There's no question in my mind which is vastly more effective and which creates a better bond with my dogs and me.