Amen to this! No matter how clean the vet's office looks there is always a higher risk of parvo and other potentially fatal diseases there than keeping the pups in your own home. Just think about how many people in the waiting room who can't resist petting and picking up your pups or even worse letting their dogs sniff or lick them. Lord only knows why those people and their pets are there. That little cough Fido has may be kennel cough or that diarreah Muffy the pound adoptee has may be parvo. That is the main reason I do my own dewclaws and vaccinations and take fecal samples to the clinic without taking the litter. Why put pups at risk when you don't have to?
My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies
- Thread starter ufimych
- Start date
Amen to this! No matter how clean the vet's office looks there is always a higher risk of parvo and other potentially fatal diseases there than keeping the pups in your own home. Just think about how many people in the waiting room who can't resist petting and picking up your pups or even worse letting their dogs sniff or lick them. Lord only knows why those people and their pets are there. That little cough Fido has may be kennel cough or that diarreah Muffy the pound adoptee has may be parvo. That is the main reason I do my own dewclaws and vaccinations and take fecal samples to the clinic without taking the litter. Why put pups at risk when you don't have to?
Although my pups are born and raised in my kitchen, I do bookoos of health testing, and I show in conformation I do see where Pops2 and the OP are coming from.
Show dogs are bred to trot around a ring and they are normally not as physically challenged to the degree that working and hunting dogs are. Show breeders need to health test their dogs to find problems that are simply not as obvious as they would be in a working/hunting dog. The Golden Retriever with HD or the Peke with a severe heart murmer can still make it around the show ring and might even be used for breeding by less than reputable breeders. The coonhound or sled dog that breaks down due to a health problem is unlikely to be bred because the breeder has no desire for more dogs that can't be worked or hunted with.
This is just a theory but it makes sense to me. *shrugs*
Show dogs are bred to trot around a ring and they are normally not as physically challenged to the degree that working and hunting dogs are. Show breeders need to health test their dogs to find problems that are simply not as obvious as they would be in a working/hunting dog. The Golden Retriever with HD or the Peke with a severe heart murmer can still make it around the show ring and might even be used for breeding by less than reputable breeders. The coonhound or sled dog that breaks down due to a health problem is unlikely to be bred because the breeder has no desire for more dogs that can't be worked or hunted with.
This is just a theory but it makes sense to me. *shrugs*
Has anyone here pointed out that the weather in VIRGINIA is certaintly not the same as that of the Middle East? That a dog with virtually no body fat and sparse feathering should not be forced to live outside in frigid, snowy winters?
If you live in the Middle East, or a place with weather conditions on par with it, and you would like to camp outside with your dogs and/or spend all of your waking hours with them... I'm fine with you forcing them to live/procreate/raise their young completely outdoors. Otherwise, I feel it is not so "natural" as it is lazy and careless. D:
If you live in the Middle East, or a place with weather conditions on par with it, and you would like to camp outside with your dogs and/or spend all of your waking hours with them... I'm fine with you forcing them to live/procreate/raise their young completely outdoors. Otherwise, I feel it is not so "natural" as it is lazy and careless. D:
I did.
I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself :rofl1
I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'.
And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)
I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself :rofl1
I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'. And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)
I'm also worried that if any of these dogs are going to homes where they will live inside they are going to go home with none of the socialization to indoor events (vacuum, TV, hustle and bustle of people in the house, noise the AC makes, radio, beginnings of learning human behavior, simply seeing all the indoor furniture, etc.) that a pup from a breeder with pups inside would have. The owners will have to get them used to all these things when they get them, IMO that's something the breeder should do as much as possible, there is only a small window of socialization so their lives should be jam packed with both indoor and outdoor socialization from the time they are little newborns (learning to have their bodies handled) to the time they go home from the breeder and the rest continues on by the owner when they are sold.
Unless of course all ten of these pups are going to working homes where they'll live outside. I'm not saying the pups can't learn to live inside after they are adopted, I'm just saying the pups are starting much later than a pup who lived inside before. If I'm getting a pet dog from a breeder I want someone who is giving me the absolute best dog he can and for me that means a ton of socialization from the start so I have a confident pup from the start who has already had lots of socialization so that living in the house is one less thing the owner has to work on. The owner can focus her attention on socializing the dog to off property places, people and other dogs.
Unless of course all ten of these pups are going to working homes where they'll live outside. I'm not saying the pups can't learn to live inside after they are adopted, I'm just saying the pups are starting much later than a pup who lived inside before. If I'm getting a pet dog from a breeder I want someone who is giving me the absolute best dog he can and for me that means a ton of socialization from the start so I have a confident pup from the start who has already had lots of socialization so that living in the house is one less thing the owner has to work on. The owner can focus her attention on socializing the dog to off property places, people and other dogs.
I did.
I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself :rofl1 I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'.
And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)
I don't have a big deal with the lack of puppy vet visits. Except for the fact that I will take them in if there is an issue. I wouldn't let a pup die from something that could be fixed with meds. And with out the c section Dekka never would have been able to give birth to Kat, as someone who was in labour forever herself and needed a c section (and I come from a long line of 'easy whelpers' myself :rofl1
I can't see someone letting a bitch suffer just cause its 'natural'. I would likely be dead if I had to give birth 'naturally'. And there are working dogs of various breeds that do have long successful careers with health issues. They just manage, or compensate. Yes the 'huntin' hounds that I know are a pretty healthy lot, mixed best dog to best dog regardless of breed etc. But I also know what they do with the ones who can't/won't hunt....... (if no one wants a pet)
However, lots of times Joe, John and Jack were looking for working pups, and the Bitch would have 6... so 2 or 3 would end up as pets... They loved to pet them to youngsters with willing parents inthe hopes they'd try hunting later. That is how Jeff ended up with Lady at 8 years of age, she wound up being one of his best workers and lived to be petted by our own kids.
Maybe it's regional, but also, not many work the smaller beagle type rabbit hounds up here, I have noticed when they say hound, they are typically talking about a larger coon hound type... In my area of Ontario I have not met that many who work hounds period, though I have met people who travel North of 7 to run deer with dogs, and that is so different to where I am from, what I was taught... Home your hound gets caught running a deer and the game warden has the authority to shoot it onsight:yikes:
yes most of the ones I know are larger. Around here ppl put tracking collars on them and let them go.. they often don't seem to get all that upset if they loose one . They hunt a lot of coyote right around here. When I lived at in Warsaw I was for ever finding hounds showing up and trying to find out who's they were.
Most of the ppl I know personally hunt deer with their hounds. They do care if they don't come back.. but they don't keep them around if they can't hunt. (well they do retire the good huntin ones.. but if a young one won't hunt, and no one wants a pet its either dumped or shot)
. They hunt a lot of coyote right around here. When I lived at in Warsaw I was for ever finding hounds showing up and trying to find out who's they were.Most of the ppl I know personally hunt deer with their hounds. They do care if they don't come back.. but they don't keep them around if they can't hunt. (well they do retire the good huntin ones.. but if a young one won't hunt, and no one wants a pet its either dumped or shot)
You know, we all want the best for our dogs but there is one thing that really urks me.
Dogs have survived absolutely AMAZINGLY for CENTURIES with minimal input.
I'd go so far as to say it's only in the last 50 years that dogs have really become pampered with quality food, comfy beds, pretty clothes etc etc.
Marketing giants saw another niche to be exploited.
When my parents had dogs, they didn't have a bed, they slept in the kitchen on the floor, and they ate bog standard food. They were AMAZING dogs. Happy, healthy - our collie was ancient before she subcumed to old age.
You can get SOOOO swept up with the whole I MUST DO THIS OR I AM IRRESPONSIBLE.
Actually that's bullshite. Dogs are not tiny little delicate angels which might break if I do this or I do that.
THAT is (dare I say) a mostly Americanised attitude.
Go to most European countries - well ANY other country than the US - and you'll see MUCH more relaxed attitudes to dog ownership.
There are always the fanatics, but generally dogs like - food, water, somewhere to sleep and company and stimulation. They don't CARE how those things come. And they can live full long healthy lives with those requirements being met.
And you don't need a heated bedroom, with down pillows, steaks and diamond encrusted jewel collars to keep a dog healthy OR happy.
Dogs have survived absolutely AMAZINGLY for CENTURIES with minimal input.
I'd go so far as to say it's only in the last 50 years that dogs have really become pampered with quality food, comfy beds, pretty clothes etc etc.
Marketing giants saw another niche to be exploited.
When my parents had dogs, they didn't have a bed, they slept in the kitchen on the floor, and they ate bog standard food. They were AMAZING dogs. Happy, healthy - our collie was ancient before she subcumed to old age.
You can get SOOOO swept up with the whole I MUST DO THIS OR I AM IRRESPONSIBLE.
Actually that's bullshite. Dogs are not tiny little delicate angels which might break if I do this or I do that.
THAT is (dare I say) a mostly Americanised attitude.
Go to most European countries - well ANY other country than the US - and you'll see MUCH more relaxed attitudes to dog ownership.
There are always the fanatics, but generally dogs like - food, water, somewhere to sleep and company and stimulation. They don't CARE how those things come. And they can live full long healthy lives with those requirements being met.
And you don't need a heated bedroom, with down pillows, steaks and diamond encrusted jewel collars to keep a dog healthy OR happy.
again no issues with them being outdoors, i do feel sighhoudns are a breed that shouldnt be outdoors year round and needs more one on one human interaction but thats beyond the point...
my biggest concern here is the op talking about how the puppies NEVER see a vet...
when vixie had her litter, the vet came to me to give them a quick check over...your worried about all the scary illensses at the vet, find a vet thatll do a house call...
while i feel that a healthy litter shouldnt have to see a vet through most of it, i personally would want them at least a quick once over before they leave, for both mine and my "buyers" peace of mind, if a buyer claimes 2 weeks down the line "this puppies sick and its from when i got it" i at least have the vets say that the puppy was perfectly healthy when it left. (a good friend of mine had this happen when the new owners son took the 12 week old puppy to a dog park where it picked up worms and giardia...she tried to insist the dog was ill before she got it and wanted the vets costs plus "compensation", vet did fecals and a check over before the dog whent home...and her case for puppy lemon when she tried to take it to court fell through based on that...it wasnt untill after court her son admitted hed taken the dog to the dog park where hed seen it eat poop)
the part where the op does NOT intervene in the birth, if a puppy gets stuck what then?! the dogs birthing alone, no vet on call, what if its the first pup?! you can lose an entire litter AND the mother...what then?!
Oh its natures way...
what if she retains one?! ends up with a nasty infection ect?! just natures way of saying shes not "healthy enoguh" to have puppies...and since the op openly admits to letting snake bites take theour course and not seeing a vet ect would the bitch simply wait the infection out and hope for the best?!
and agreed on the virginia winters issue, yes the nights of the middle east can get cold, but not feet of snow cold...yes hay will provide some insulation, but not realy enough. if your all for "au natural" youd be living in the middle east with those dogs, nothing about their current environment is natural.
pops: just to address, im not sure about the cresteis youve been around, but ive started spending alot of time around the bred in the past almost 3 years, ive talked to alot of GOOD breeders, and the many cresties ive met, most dont realy bark so much as yodle and whine, they come into heat on average once every 8-12 months, and they are NOT easy train easy handle dogs, while they bond very strongly with their person (and do tend towards seperation anxiety) they are often highly aloof with strangers, and can be VERY hard to train, they need a very certain hand.
the modern crestie however is definatly far removed from the breed it used to be in terms of traits, this breed was bred to hunt, now its rare to find a crestie who will chase small game outside of a "hey lets play" Ruby is very much a hunt and CATCH kind of dog, but doesnt have the instinct to kill, jasper at 6 months has also shown his hunt and ability to catch, (though hes all feet and likes ot bat at his catch like a cat does)
my biggest concern here is the op talking about how the puppies NEVER see a vet...
when vixie had her litter, the vet came to me to give them a quick check over...your worried about all the scary illensses at the vet, find a vet thatll do a house call...
while i feel that a healthy litter shouldnt have to see a vet through most of it, i personally would want them at least a quick once over before they leave, for both mine and my "buyers" peace of mind, if a buyer claimes 2 weeks down the line "this puppies sick and its from when i got it" i at least have the vets say that the puppy was perfectly healthy when it left. (a good friend of mine had this happen when the new owners son took the 12 week old puppy to a dog park where it picked up worms and giardia...she tried to insist the dog was ill before she got it and wanted the vets costs plus "compensation", vet did fecals and a check over before the dog whent home...and her case for puppy lemon when she tried to take it to court fell through based on that...it wasnt untill after court her son admitted hed taken the dog to the dog park where hed seen it eat poop)
the part where the op does NOT intervene in the birth, if a puppy gets stuck what then?! the dogs birthing alone, no vet on call, what if its the first pup?! you can lose an entire litter AND the mother...what then?!
Oh its natures way...
what if she retains one?! ends up with a nasty infection ect?! just natures way of saying shes not "healthy enoguh" to have puppies...and since the op openly admits to letting snake bites take theour course and not seeing a vet ect would the bitch simply wait the infection out and hope for the best?!
and agreed on the virginia winters issue, yes the nights of the middle east can get cold, but not feet of snow cold...yes hay will provide some insulation, but not realy enough. if your all for "au natural" youd be living in the middle east with those dogs, nothing about their current environment is natural.
pops: just to address, im not sure about the cresteis youve been around, but ive started spending alot of time around the bred in the past almost 3 years, ive talked to alot of GOOD breeders, and the many cresties ive met, most dont realy bark so much as yodle and whine, they come into heat on average once every 8-12 months, and they are NOT easy train easy handle dogs, while they bond very strongly with their person (and do tend towards seperation anxiety) they are often highly aloof with strangers, and can be VERY hard to train, they need a very certain hand.
the modern crestie however is definatly far removed from the breed it used to be in terms of traits, this breed was bred to hunt, now its rare to find a crestie who will chase small game outside of a "hey lets play" Ruby is very much a hunt and CATCH kind of dog, but doesnt have the instinct to kill, jasper at 6 months has also shown his hunt and ability to catch, (though hes all feet and likes ot bat at his catch like a cat does)
thanks foxy about the cresties, i only know from the one BYBer.
All
the climate in the mideast is horribly cold in winter. the two coldest places i've been were Iraq in Feb & winter in Chicago (waukegan). even Utah in winter wasn't as bad as Iraq. now consider that the OPs dogs came from Russia & Kazakhstan both of which are much farther north than Iraq. Having lived in Richmond & VA Beach VA as well, i can attest that the more humid environment alleviates a lot of the cold compared to the deserts these dogs came from. in Utah my cross got a real thick winter coat and blew it in late spring like most dogs will in an environment w/clear differences of season. so the sighthounds aren't suffering in the cold as much as you would think. one of the more prolific breeders of working longdogs is in Idaho w/ some rough winters.
i personally wouldn't let a dog die from having pups if i could help it but i wouldn't breed from her get either, if she were in prime age (obviously a last late litter will just be riskier and should be considered differently). whether she needed it or not, her & all her pups would be desexed after that (to include older pups from previous litters).
All
the climate in the mideast is horribly cold in winter. the two coldest places i've been were Iraq in Feb & winter in Chicago (waukegan). even Utah in winter wasn't as bad as Iraq. now consider that the OPs dogs came from Russia & Kazakhstan both of which are much farther north than Iraq. Having lived in Richmond & VA Beach VA as well, i can attest that the more humid environment alleviates a lot of the cold compared to the deserts these dogs came from. in Utah my cross got a real thick winter coat and blew it in late spring like most dogs will in an environment w/clear differences of season. so the sighthounds aren't suffering in the cold as much as you would think. one of the more prolific breeders of working longdogs is in Idaho w/ some rough winters.
i personally wouldn't let a dog die from having pups if i could help it but i wouldn't breed from her get either, if she were in prime age (obviously a last late litter will just be riskier and should be considered differently). whether she needed it or not, her & all her pups would be desexed after that (to include older pups from previous litters).
Good for you and for the vets. When a dog needs to be taken to vet often, the question emerges: Is it a genetically healthy dog? Perhaps, it would dead long ago, if not vets. Puppies and dogs raised outside are healthier, then those raised inside. First, they need some daily teperature changes to establish their own thermoregulaton. Second, they need to be exposed to natural bacterial flora to stimulate their own immune syste. This is equally true about humans. Therefore, puppies will grow healthier in not too clean environment. The hygiene theory holds that a lack of exposure to germs, allergens, and parasites increases susceptibility to allergic diseases and weakens the human immune system. This explains the sharply rising rate of allergies and asthma in the western world and may have dire consequences for human health. What are we doing to our puppies? Nobody in a right mind needs doctors. or vets, if the dogs are sound genetically. A dog, which became veterinary dependent is a wrong choice for breeding. Give room for natural selection to decide. Therefore, I have confidence in my dogs and puppies and money back guarantee health of my puppies, including genetical faults. Only emergency is a good reason to seek veterinary assistance. Of course, a commercial kennel is a different matter. Diseases and dirt in overcrowded kennel breeds most visious germs, overcoming immune system. Call your vet! This is what is written in all junk cynological publications. My advice is do not call any vet without serious need. Let mother nature to take its own course. This helps to breed genetically sound dogs.
