CKC and the JRT question

Thanks to ACampbell for asking a really interesting question -- and to all who took the question in the spirit in which it was tendered and enlightened us all

Carry on opcorn: :cheers:

I just realized, being 4 am and all when I replied, I quoted the wrong reply of Ado's... LOL If a Mod could edit the quoted part to the response about the APA just above the one I did quote that would be huge... sorry

Just want it taken out or is there another one you want added instead?

BWUAHAHAHAAAA! Lauraleigh . . . I haven't had my coffee yet. I edited in my reply to you rather than quoting you

So... what is the purpose of the APA? I mean, it just doesn't seem necessary at all. Maybe I'm missing something...

The Animal Pedigree act is designed to protect purebred animals.

The people who argued FOR JRT inclusion pointed out it would give us the rights to the JRT/PRT standard as you can't make a new breed that is just like the old.

But it would never work anyway... as the height standard alone in the JRT is not acceptable by the APA. 10-15 inches is too large a range for a small breed according to them.

Alright, another question (puts on flame retardant material)

What keeps your puppy buyers from having buyers remorse because their purebred but not sold as purebred dog because of the legal situation doesn't fit the standard to be registered at 1 yr of age? (i.e. in the EVENT that it does not, not saying you aren't breeding to standard...let's just say genetics can be a b!tch and it happens - like with white GSD's, recessive's and all that good stuff)

For instance, say any of you that breed a dog not listed with the APA sells a dog to BillyBob Bozo, a long time friend of the family and all around good person, knowledgible etc, i.e. the perfect puppy buyer. He knows what's going on and what the registration requirements are at the 1 year of age. He knows that this puppy cannot be registered unless it fits the breed standard. You've pissed him off (or not we can do this either way) and come to find out, the puppy didn't meet breed standard because of XYZ. Hey, crazier sh!t has happened before. So now, he's butt-hurt and is looking to ruin your reputation or get you into a world of hurt. What keeps you out of the long-arm of the law in this situation?
Is there something in your contract that states that you aren't guaranteeing the pup will meet breed standards and registration depends on that? Or is it his word against yours when all is cut and dry? Do you have to worry about being fined if he says "well they said it was a purebred puppy but it can't be registered because of XYZ"?

What protects the breeder in this kind of situation?

Now to flip the script, what protects the buyer? Say I buy a JRT (or any unmentioned breed, just using JRT's as an example now) puppy from a breeder in Canada that works doesn't register with the CKC or any other "approved" registering bodies. So at a year old let's say that this puppy cannot be registered because of XYZ. Is it part of the guarantee that I am reimbursed/replacement puppy if the puppy doesn't reach the standard in any form?


Again, not "calling" anyone out; I'm curious. There were just thoughts I pondered on the whole subject. So to be blunt and to the point, in such a sale, what protects the breeder and the buyer from ending up out of money with a puppy that doesn't meet standard for whatever reason, and what protects the breeder from having someone go whining to the powers that be and lie and say they were sold a "purebred animal" without papers? Is there something like a limited registration that shows their pedigree but the animal is on a non-breeding registration until proven to be in standard? If this has been answered, I apologize but some of the posts were long and since I'm in the middle of moving with 3 kids to supervise, I can't say that I have had time to read as in-depth as I'd like to.

No, my contracts for pet pups offered no guarantee of standard, and an altered dog would be recorded anyways and not registered, as no point to register a dog not being bred, if you record your papers look much the same and you can still "play" just not in conformation. (Unless the terrier goes over height, then you cannot race either) Luckily I have never had that happen.

My signed copy of the contract, stating all the information would protect me, It states type, and explains fully the recording option for a pet puppy, If a breeding quality puppy goes out of standard for any reason, then the contract explains the options there as well (Refund or Return and a new Pup) A recording works much like a limited registration.

I have to run, going to be late for work... I may have more to add later, but thats a quick answer from skimming your post.. LOL

I have a question; since I deal with 2 rare breeds; 1 registered with the UKC and 1 birth recorded with EBBASA; to be appraised at a later date and then registered.

Do these recognized registries have to be incorporated in Canada; or just incorporated.

This is what I found; couldn't find anything else; so some help from those that have been working on this would be useful.


Now this seems to say that the first one incorporated in Canada is the only one allowed. But say my Boerboel is registered with both EBBASA and SABT -- if someone was stupid enough to attempt to incorporate the registry in Canada (if that's what must be done) -- it doesn't nullify her registry with the other association.

Now the above is just funny; so if there was an incorporated (in Canada) association they could contract out to a non-incorporated (in Canada) association to issue pedigree papers?

So this could clear a breeder? Stating that pedigree comes from the UKC or EBBASA or SABT etc.; or the AKC?

Recognized/incorporated associations;

DOG

Canadian Border Collie Association

Canadian Canine Federation

The Canadian Kennel Club

Working Canine Association of Canada -

And is this why there was a falling out between FCI and the CKC?

Acamp>> Even if the JRT was an APA recognized breed the APA allows for performance (or health testing) requirements prior to registration.

So even if they said they were sold a 'purebred' JRT it would be hard to make it stick. And most breeders I know if you were sold a breeding quality dog (the only dogs you would register) will refund or give you another puppy if the one you get is unsuitable. I gave Scandal back.. she was a fantastic little dog-but there was NO WAY she was registrable (I wouldn't have bred her anyway) So when Ado has a litter I will likely either get another girl.. or a refund.

I know people who have returned otherwise very nice dogs but who's bite goes off. It can be small things.

In your example.. why is the fellow wanting a breeding dog? If he is planning on becoming a breeder he would know these things happen. (I have had not so great luck in buying puppies-but I still have the greatest respect for the breeder of those puppies. I realize it has simply been bad luck on my part) If he isn't going to breed, you can't register an altered dog anyway. Any JRT can be recorded. Even the short legged puds can be recorded (as long as they aren't shorter than 10 inches). And if you want to play and JRT trials all you need is a registered OR recorded terrier.

Like Laura said, you sell a pup with either the intent of the 'possiblity' of that pup being show/breeding stock or its a pet. To expand on that some are sold on the 'promise' of a working dog as well. In my case many of my dogs go to performance homes, they don't want to breed them and those people hardly care about breed standards as long as the dog is able to perform and do it well.
I have had a couple people come back to me after they purchased a 'performance/pet' pup and now these people are thinking about breeding. Funny enough, its their vets and trainers that have convinced them to not spay/neuter.
Depending on the person, I MAY ammend the original contract for a limited amount of time. Then if the pup is absolutely a good example of the breed, has a great temperament along with the fact that the owner is proving that dog in a ring, PLUS the main requirement from me is they take the dog to the working field to be proven there, If it doesn't/wont work/hunt, it doens't get bred, Period. And of course all the health clearances have also been done.

To reiterate what Laural said, we do have a limited registration and puppy owners have had the process explained to them so there is no confusion. Concerning show/breeding prospects, the conditions and contracts are the same as purchasing from a Kennel club reg'd breeder.
Another thing, just because we sell a pup under a spay/neuter contract doesn't mean that pup matures outside of the breed standard or has faults that would make it only able to be reg'd in our limited registry. In my case I have only ever produced 3 pups that would have been denied full registration and two of them it was known when they were pups..........One had a herina, One didn't make standard by being too small and having seriously wonky ears and the other one was Petie whom I kept, he only had on testicle.

Over the years I have met serveral dogs of various breeders that were outside of their standard........but they had their papers, whether those papers be open or limited. And often the owners didn't know or didn't care. I have also met several PRT's with limited or open papers and those dogs wouldn't get full papers in our registry because the dog was outside of the standard or had faults that would demand that they not receive full papers, again the owners were clueless that their dog wasn't a good example of the breed.

So did that help or just muddy the waters more?? lol

I think the idea of the APA was started with the intent of protecting the 'purebred' but like many things they fell short. To truely do their job (the APA), they would have demanded that all animals be tested for the various genetic issues and if a animal was effected with such a serious fault, that they (the APA) had the right to pull the dogs breeding rights and its papers being moved to limited. They would also have inspections of the various species to br classified at different levels and as to whether they should be breeding stock, as they do in Germany. In short taking the decisions away from the breeder/clubs/kennel club and be the 'breeding police'. Whether it stopped mills and byb's who known, but it could possibly help if done that way.

It's good information, and I'm glad it was taken in the intent it was meant. I was very curious what keeps someone from feeling like Tjedt in her thread and calling the law into it with the breeder.

I would like to double-check that I have this right... sorry for all the questions. I think this is really interesting and I want to make sure I understand!
A JRT is not technically born with papers. After a year, you apply and he is evaluated to the breed standard. If he matches the breed standard, he can be registered... if he does NOT match the breed standard, he can be recorded.
Does a dog have to be s/n'd to be recorded..?

And, say I have two JRTs that are neither registered nor recorded, and I breed them. If the dogs are still within standard, can they be registered? Or in the case a dog doesn't have to be neutered to be recorded, if my recorded dog breeds, can those pups then be registered?
If I breed a JRT to (just as an example, LOL) a poodle and one of the offspring is still within JRT breed standard, he can still be registered?


I guess I'm also trying to find out if there is still attention paid to how to track and record lineage. I think it's really neat to have papers and be able to look at Auggie's grandparents and great-grandparents and THEIR grandparents, et cetera. Can you still basically do this... but is it more through individual research than a registry? Or are the papers you get essentially the same as an AKC or CKC pedigree, just... not?


Can you tell me more about how a dog is evaluated to be registered or recorded, too?

TIA, sorry I have so many questions!

Very interesting thread.

I just wonder... do those of you who live in Canada, especially those who breed and therefore are subject to this... do you think the APA is a good thing? (I thknk adojrts touched on this, saying it had good intentions that fell short).

It kind of sounds to me like it protects the buyer at the expense of the breeder? is this wrong?

And sorry if this is self explanatory but you are allowed to sell any dog you want as long as you dont call it a purebred? So I can sell maltipoos and be fine but if a JRT breeder sold "purebred JRT's" they would be in trouble?

I guess I am either missing something big or failing to see the value in the APA.

Yep you got it! And yes (generally) to the s/n.

Kinda but not really.. Take Kaiden as an example. His mom was non reg nor recorded. It cost more.. but as both his grandparents are registered and I had a copy of the stud record it was ok.

Not currently.. I am sure it has happened in the past. Some lines are known to go back to other breeds. But is expressly NOT allowed now.


The JRTCA gives you a more full pedigree than the JRTCC does. But I have Dekka's papers back 8 generations on both sides. I could likely go back further on some dogs.


http://jrtcc.org/about/registry_forms/Health Certificate.pdf


If the dog does not appear to meet breed standard the pics are sent off to the breeders committee for a final verdict.
The papers you get back are laminated and have two side view pics of your dog on the back.

The APA was really created for livestock. Most dog breeders likely don't know a thing about it. Unless you lived through the APA debate in the JRT world I doubt you would really know anything about it. It really does't do much. It does give the CKC a little more 'teeth' when going after breeders not giving out paperwork with their dogs. But that seems to be about it.

Typically a dog must be spay/neutered to be Recorded, if they don't qualify for full papers. In the past there has been exceptions to the spay/neuter for recorded terriers if they are borderline on the breed standard but having said that you still have to have a signed pedigree etc. To answer your question, No you can't just take a dog and get papers on it, just because its within the breed standard and you want to breed it.
I have traced my dog's pedigrees back to at least 20 generations and could go further if I wanted to.
The JRTCA/CC/GB are legit registries, no different than any other breed club or kennel club registry. The only difference is they don't allow non breed standard dogs to be reg'd for breeding stock and a dog isn't guaranteed registration papers just because it was the product of two registered dogs. As already pointed out they must be reg'd on their own merit, as long as they have all the proper paperwork to back up the claims that it is a 'pedigreed dog'.

To quote the Founder's Effect:

The excessive use of inbreeding and line breeding on such a dog will further reduce genetic diversity. Eggleston(2000) reported on the range of genetic diversity among the AKC breeds. She constructed a continuum for all of the breeds. At one extreme she placed the Bull Terriers which had the least amount of genetic diversity. This means that they tend to be line or inbred. At the other extreme were the Jack Russell Terriers who she found to have the most amount of genetic diversity. This means their pedigrees were for the most part the result of outcross breedings. This meant that the ancestors tended to be unrelated to each other. End Quote.

Now in recent years, since they have closed the stud books to accepting outcrosses of other breeds this is quickly changing. Many of the same lines are used over and over again resulting in difficulty in outcrossing within the breed. And of course as the breed tighens down and the line breeding increases, the undesired recessive faults are also becoming more of problem in the way of genetic issues i.e PLL and Catracts.

LOL one thing I find interesting about the pedigrees. Dekka's pedigree is full of 'old' dogs. A lot of her ancestors were 'older' when they had the litters she came from. So even when only looking back 8 generations I am looking back to the late 70's/early 80's. 'Back in the day' it seems a lot of these dogs didn't have Kennel names. They were called "Jill, and Myrtle, and Moo, and Willie and such (not kidding lol) Now you don't have to go too far to be back in the day. Before there was a registry it was just people's records.

Thanks guys!! That is really helpful.
I agree with Zoom, I really like the way that sounds. It makes so much SENSE to operate that way.

okay, that makes more sense now.

All this talk made me think it was some god like governing law. :lol-sign: