Breeding out DA

Steve's as much of a jerk with other dogs as my bullies, though he has far more focus while working, which makes a huge difference. His breeder has dogs who cannot go out together. His dad was placed because he absolutely could not get along with the other intact males in the house. I'm willing to put up with it in him just as I'm willing to put up with it in my bulldogs because of everything else they bring to the table. But I still cross my fingers and try to be as proactive as possible when it comes to preventing issues between dogs, because crate and rotate just doesn't sound like that much fun.

The in house DA is the reason I probably won't have another cattle dog again unless I rescue an adult. Thats not something I really want to handle again, atleast not for a long while. I can handle seperating dogs when I'm not around, I can handle a dog that doesn't like other dogs in its face, but I don't want dogs that can't be out together at home when I'm around.

Dog tolerance is a big reason (probably the main reason) why i wanted a BC over a kelpie this time. Quinn doesn't care much for other dogs, she's very polite but a rude dog scares her and a dog that won't just greet and then back off gets an air snap if its not readin the "leave me alone" signals. I love her like this but I wish she was more confident.

I don't see the point of trying to breed out DA.
It would be a very intricate process. Breeding two non-DA dogs does not guarantee that you'd end up with non-DA pups, and if only breeding with the absence of DA in mind, you'd likely end up with dogs that lack certain breed qualities or have additional ones not typically associated with the breed.
Why would you even want to? To make it easier on the owners? While I understand some frustration (I had a same-sex aggressive Rottweiler bitch and it was tiring to constantly make sure there were no fights), if someone truly can't stand DA in their typically DA breed, they've got the wrong one. Or to decrease accidents with ignorant owners who can't handle it? I despise the thought of trying to alter the dogs when the people are at fault.

Well put. That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but I'm not much of a wordsmith!

I would say not a good idea.

A big reason would be a drastic decrease in the (breeding) population which would cause a very limited gene pool. I believe the majority of APBT are DA. You have other considerations of what is important. Working ability, drive, health, structure, temperament. . . . once you elimate the DA dogs it'd be further reduced by those reason.

You also may end up with unforeseen and unwanted changes. Which happens when you try to do away with a trait. Even when done for a good cause like eliminating a health issueit could cause problems. Sometimes focusing on removing one health problem causes another to be more common.

Traits can be genetically linked, at this time we have no idea how. So without more knowledge on the genome and genetic engineering Id say no its not possible nor is it a good idea to attempt.

What would be the reason. . . Its not terrible to deal with. If people cant handle a breed then find one you can. I dont think its good to attempt to change a breed just so the average owner can get one. There is no need to breed DA out of the APBT, prey drive out of the Dogo Argentino, defense drive HA out of the Caucasian Ovcharka, ect

The reason why DA Labs are not game is because there are DIFFERENT TYPES of DA. Therefore different correlate to other traits. Genetic DA in APBT is differing than that of Labs. Just because DA is inhereted doesnt mean there is only one simple set of genes causing it. Behavioral traits are complex. Some DA is also caused by environment, though the dog has that outcome naturally. Being a dog period makes them have the possibility of aggresion in some situation. Its innate though what triggers it can vary from breed to breed and yes individuals.

I only read the intro post, not all the replies. I own APBT, always have, always will. I see different types of DA in all the dogs I have (I have 7). Some exhibit DA to animals on the other side of the fence, but if the animals are brought inside the house, they do nothing. Some have high prey drive and will kill any animal regardless, in the yard. Not in my house. If I go to the vet, he comes to the car to see my dogs, DA in the office. Dog shows, they have to be kept on a very short lead, next to me. God forbid I watch any tv show with an animal. Nothing like a $1200 Plasma crashing to the floor!


All my dogs show signs of DA/or just plain animal aggression.

There is a difference in many I have seen. Many American Bullies do not exhibit DA, for many generations, then one or two will.

Prey drive is something as well, that has to do with DA I believe, and can be confused easily.

I do not believe DA can be bred out of a line that is known for exhibiting DA. I don believe it is a simple genetic disorder. In many breeds, especially the APBT it is part of what the breed actually is. It would be as hard to erase as say, their instinct to pant-

I do not believe that DA can be erased in a genetic pattern such as breeding out something like an overbite, kink tail, or skin disorder. It is not a recessive gene. It falls more on the "instinct" side of the breed in question.

DA can be controlled, but never ever trusted.

Good replies. Interesting topic.

I don't believe in selecting a dog based strictly on DA, and neither do I believe in breeding it out. Thinking in the larger picture here, DA is obviously not limited to one breed. You can get DA in a mongrel dog, and there you have no option of trying to "breed it out," it simply happens. I had three APBTs living together at one point, and they all ended up with some measure of DA, to the point where they could no longer run as a threesome. With me now are the two females, and they will hurt each other given a chance. But both are very worthy dogs and good examples of their breed.

I like to see DA controlled in most circumstances. Keep the dog on a leash, teach it to focus on you. But remember what you have at the same time. So many really nice dogs in my breed are DA. And many of the non-DA dogs... well... they're pretty, probably even big show winners, but to me they don't exemplify that bulldog type that is so intense that you have to write it with italics, bolding and red font color. Being DA means a dog needs more sensible handling, but IMO its really no more of an issue than other traits that come along with most breeds bred to perform.

A question to those who have said they value dog-tolerance and have deliberately chosen dog-tolerant breeds because of that. What would you do if a dog you selected from a dog-tolerant breed ended up being DA later in life? I'm genuinely curious. I wonder how many people with non-APBTs consider this possibility.

There is always a possibility this will happen, however you have a far better chance of having a house full of Goldens who get along than APBTs. There's nothing wrong with choosing a breed who is the most likely to meet your needs.

The reason I have no more GSDs is because there is a fairly big risk of same sex DA towards household dogs in the breed. I didn't knowor expect that when I first got the GSDs. Although I was warned I didn't take the warning seriously. I ended up with two GSD bitches who would have fought to the death of one and one GSD who wanted to kill any other bitch she lived with (yet was not DA otherwise). I dealt with it through careful management and C&R for over a decade and would again if needed. But I'd rather not. While I realize there is a risk of such things in any dog, I'd prefer to avoid it if at all possible. I would not buy a puppy of any breed from a line that was known for same sex DA issues or who had parents or multiple close relatives who seriously fought with household dogs. If I still end up with same sex aggression towards household dogs, I'd deal with because I'd have to. But it would be unfortunate to have such bad luck and it sure woulnd't be my preference.

DA or DR to some degree towards non-household dogs isn't as big an issue for me unless it's really serious or uncontrollable. My dogs don't go to dog parks and don't need to make other doggy friends. The only dogs I have now who are really good with all other dogs are Whimsy and Savvy. The rest have varying degrees of inappropriate behavior towards at least some other dogs, most of which is not really an issue because it's easy to control or avoid. None are all out, serious wanting to kill other dogs either though. Just snarky, guardy, intolerant of rudeness or overly macho in some situations.

I'm one of those who doesn't want to deal with full-on dog aggression, but if my dog ended up, for some reason, unable to be left loose in the house with our other dog, we'd deal with it. I'm assuming this is some weird universe where we know it's not a medical issue, and it's just her hating him for some reason, because it'd require a huge personality change. Anyway, we'd crate and rotate and deal.

I just don't want to.

I would deal.

I would more than likely work long and hard to make sure that all the house dogs can tolerate each other because I honestly really don't want to crate and rotate on a daily basis.

Will if I have to though.

I guess im lucky. Puck is not what i would call DA. He can be DR when outside of the house if a dog comes at him without proper doggie manners,( he hates to be growled and snipped at) I just have always made sure that no fights happen. He is great with both pax and Jack and other dogs that come to play in his yard. I think that breeding it out would cause more issues than it worth and if the owners would just accept its part of the breed and use caustion when around other dogs its very managable. It would have been hard if he showed DA to my other dogs but i was always aware it was possible and just glad it has not happened to this point. Wouldnt change owning him for the world though.

Yeah, there are days when I think it would be so much easier to deal with non-DA dogs. Like today. I had to take a long lunch to come home and let the dogs out (all 14 of them). It would have been easier and allowed them to have more time out if I could put any of them out in yards together. But with only me here, the safest option is to not try it, even though there are a few who usually get along.

I am on board with choosing a breed that is most likely to fit your needs. That makes perfect sense. I think sometimes I forget what its like to actually live with typically dog-friendly dogs. I always consider the possibility that any dog can turn DA as they age, but maybe that's not the case with most.

It's so funny when I talk to a good friend of mine with three APBT's. She doesn't even think about it. Crating and rotating is just a part of life and how she plans on most of her life being. And to me, I just hate the idea of it. I like my dogs to all be able to lay around together, play together and just be together.

Luckily, I haven't yet heard of a Koolie that doesn't live peacefully for the most part with the other house dogs.

I don't mind dealing with DR/DA. I grew up with Pitties and I learned from a young age that it's something you deal with in the breed when it is present. I've dealt with it in quite a few breeds, and mixes.


So, I agree it would be a bad thing to actively try to breed it out. Gene pool shrinking, and the fact that I don't feel anyone should try to fix something when I don't consider it to be broken, are just a couple of reasons.

If I could own one again, I would in a heartbeat. If DA is present, we will deal with it.

I've never dealt with an AmStaff. How much less-prominent is DA within them?

Well, my dogs and the breeds I tend to like aren't the happy go lucky love every dog in the world type of breeds and that's fine with me. I've never had a real dog park type dog that actually enjoys playing with strange dogs. I don't need that kind of dog and I'd go so far to say that I don't want that kind of dog. Nor do I want a dog that loves every person they meet. I want a little bit of that edge when it comes to outside dogs and people. The love everyone attitude tends to annoy me. (Even though Summer loves every person in the world)

I'll be honest though if my two suddenly decided they hated each other and started fighting to kill each other, I would probably rehome Summer to my dad. I know that sounds awful but I am gone to work a lot and I want the time I have free to be able to have both dogs out at the same time. Summer loves everyone and loves Rose and Beau and would be happy there. Mia doesn't get along as well with the others and is a harder dog to handle.

Mia can be kind of sharp and reactive at times and I deal with that. I just don't want two in house dogs that try to eat each other all the time. And I always want multiple dogs. That's the only reason it's an issue. If I only wanted to own one dog in the future, I honestly wouldn't care one way or another about DA.

I know tons of people with lots of papillons and never known anyone that has had to crate and rotate them. We've even combined up to 3 packs with intact boys and girls before (16 total dogs) and never had a problem at all. One pap play day at my breeders' there were 50 some odd dogs there and although not all were let out at the same time, there were no fights at all. I just watched a video of another pap group that had a little over 30 dogs and a bunch of people and the paps in the video were just all hanging out no issue in the yard. I like that.

Personally DA is just not something I am fit to deal with. Not in a city filled with dogs, with walk space being a popular park, in a condo with dogs, in elevators with other dogs, 52 stories up in a lobby with other dogs, on subways with dogs and of course sharing sidewalks with other dogs.

It happened with Romeo, even tiny guy that he is, after being attacked now attacks/freaks and then shuts down around other dogs... And it simply wasn't possible. That was a case of the perfect little dog for me, who through seemingly impossible circumstance, became a dog that didn't enjoy the life he once had AT ALL. Even with 2 behaviorist.. He was miserable in the city in our life.
He now lives with my cousin in the suburbs, and they continue to work on his issues, but he is 100x less stressed and happier there. He enjoys walks and life outside the house again...
It's really a sobering realization that no, I am not capable of dealing with a dog with dog aggression.. Especially if I decided to go with a larger breed it would be a stressed miserable life for us both.

I could deal with DA in Romeo maybe, he is small.. I could just try to hold him/avoid other dogs and only put him down when the coast is clear (although what a life..) but I can't deal with how miserable/stressed his DA issues make him. This formerly fearless happy dog turns into a shaking, peeing, barking , hiding mess in the uber dog city environment and it kills me to see it

So in the future, ya, this is a trait I am very very wary of in breeds. I have even gone so far as to decide that already dog friendly matured dogs are probably my only option

First things first (((((HUGGIES))))) Fran!!

I've pretty much have come to accept that I probably will always be surrounded by a dog that has some form of DA/DR. Most if not all the breeds I am interested in are genetically predesposed with DA or SSA. I will try my darnest to work around the DA/DR/SSA by having dogs of the opposite sex in the house, socialising the crap out of them with other dogs.

But I do know that genetics rule sometimes and I am prepared to work through it if I have to.

If I were a breeder? I would never breed an aggressive dog, period. Human OR dog aggressive.

People continue to prove that they cannot handle DA or HA dogs... it just doesn't work in our society. It makes the breed look awful. It's a danger to other people & animals. Of course, by HA, I mean unstable biters not trained protection dogs.

I don't think it would compromise the breed at all, in regards to APBTs. There are plenty of superbly friendly, amazing working dogs in the world. This is not a breed that is lacking gene pools or breeders. It is simply lacking a majority of GOOD breeders. To me, reputable APBT breeders should absolutely be focused on breeding only human and dog friendly specimens, in order to restore the reputation and integrity of the breed. Cull all dogs who exhibit any signs of aggression (by that I mean alter them), and if certain lines are producing a lot of DA dogs, switch it up.

So... I just now read through all of the thread, and there are some interesting points. Having met/worked with/played with thousands of APBTs from all kinds of backgrounds though, I have met maaaanyyy who were 100% dog friendly. The majority in fact. They were no less Pit Bull. They were no less drivey, playful, or hilarious. Dog aggression does not define this breed like the eye defines Border Collies. It was bred INTO this breed by sick individuals over the last 100 years, why can't it be bred out? It is a fault in the breed, so why not work to correct it? (Yes. I do consider dog aggression a fault. Not "just because it's inconvenient for the owners"... because it is unhealthy for dogs to want to kill other dogs. I would never hate a dog for it, but naturally a dog should be social with other dogs. It is healthier for the dog mentally and safer physically.) I don't expect it to disappear tomorrow, but at least TRY! This isn't a rare breed after all.

I know an amazing APBT breeder who selects her dogs for excellent health, drive, confo and temperament. Temperament includes being friendly & reliable with other dogs. I'm considering getting a puppy from her next litter. I'm not going to abandon my dog if they turn out DA, I'm going to manage the situation, but I'm hoping that my puppy will be as dog social as his parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. The odds are much better that he's going to be dog friendly than if I got a puppy from two dog aggressive parents.