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Red Chrome

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As for litter consistency. If you have breeders doing tight breedings, that tends to give much more consistency within a litter/line. Outcrossing tends to allow for greater variance in litters. A lot of successful breeders use tight breedings or even inbreeding with occasional outcrosses which will be bred back into the original line.

Although Roust's grandparents are line bred but he's from very much an outcross breeding and that litter is extremely consistent. So much so that I was able to identify Blossom as his sister immediately with just seeing her in a Petfinder link on FB.
I have seen this in both ASTs and GSDs. Judge's first and only litter was a complete outcross. That litter was VERY consistent across the board. Very easy to identify them in my opinion. What's even more interesting is that his litter was very consistent and you can look at the current litter of puppies from a 1/2 brother of his and they look like the litter Judge produced. You can tell the puppies were related in some way.

Red girl-Judge's litter


Sookie-from his 1/2 brother


Steve-from Judge's full brother


MJ-Judge's litter


Stirling-from his 1/2 brother


To me, these puppies show consistency but yet variance, despite the variation in pedigrees. They to me look very related but different. Plus, these pictures are from different ages. Some at 9 weeks, others closer to 16 weeks.
 

Red Chrome

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So so so many dog breeds have HUGE variances in lines and even litters, and I'm not talking show/field/working bred - with labs...I've never known anyone to hunt with a 100 lb labrador with a head like a brick and a really really short coat - but look at a breed like German Shepherds. There are enormous inconsistencies in dogs that are working, either in bite sport, as police dogs, etc...not just in pet/show bred dogs and different nationalities. And Aussies...working aussies come in a wide range of size/build/coat type/etc. Same thing with beagles...the list goes on and on.
BUT, in the breeds mentioned....They are all most definitely identifiable as GSDs,Aussies etc. Whereas, honestly, I could go to my local pound and find a dog that has the same structure and look as some of the Coolies posted.

I stand strong that they are as inconsistent as Doodles and the likes. Plus, without a breed standard, what are the breeders breeding towards? That leaves too much variance in the breed.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I'm slightly confused how people choose their breeders if they prefer dogs without consistency. That said, I give. I don't really have enough engaged to challenge further. To each their own, I prefer to know what I'm getting in a litter of pups such as moderately predictable structure, consistent temperaments, relatively arched drives, and generalized looks but not everyone prefers not to buy the same. If I every plan to play the spice of variety game I'll buy a mystery from a shelter.

I see more similarity between Coolies/Koolies after more looking but I'm still understanding it is to be a type more than a breed by what is being shared when said each breeder holds their own "style" of coolie.

It's interesting none the less, though, and I appreciate those who've tried to discuss it both on and off Chaz without brushing it off as unimportant.
 

milos_mommy

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Whereas, honestly, I could go to my local pound and find a dog that has the same structure and look as some of the Coolies posted.
Do you think you could find a dog with the same structure and look, who also has the ability to work (either performance or cattle work) as a Coolie does? And if so, do you think that's going to be as guaranteed as getting a Coolie from a breeder of working dogs OR as easy to find as a breeder dog?

I could go to the pound and find a dog that has the exact same structure and look as field labs, but that doesn't mean a) the dog is all, most, or even at all labrador, or b) the dog is going to be capable of being a working hunting companion. Same goes for GSDs/Aussies or BCs/most Northern Breeds.
 
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Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.

They have been bred for working stock, large numbers of sheep or cattle over big arid spaces. Best worker to best worker is how this breed came about existing. They are upright workers and do not "lock on" to stock, very fluid, quiet and confident. Preserving them as "working dogs" is very important to this breeds history, it is what made them so special in the first place. They "back sheep", short cut to gates, fence stuck sheep, splitting up in chutes...they will jump on top of the sheep and run across their backs, the handler then give a "drop" command and dog drops into the herd to push....this is a trait particular to the coolie, and personally this is one of the traits that leads coolies to want to climb things, and explains how they are built to clear 6ft fencing from a stand still.
How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?
 

Laurelin

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I don't think I see as much difference as you do in those dogs. I see the basics (look-wise) the same. More variety than you'd see in a purely show bred litter, for sure. I don't think it is near the same as buying from a shelter. If we're seeing pup 1 looking like a border collie, pup 2 looking like a beagle, 3 looking like a chihuahua, etc then I would have a problem.
 

Red Chrome

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Do you think you could find a dog with the same structure and look, who also has the ability to work (either performance or cattle work) as a Coolie does? And if so, do you think that's going to be as guaranteed as getting a Coolie from a breeder of working dogs OR as easy to find as a breeder dog?
Yes, I do feel I could. I live in farm land, tons of herder crosses that look like Coolies and from what I can tell work like them. Of course it wouldn't be as guaranteed. My point is that there is no standard and after a ton of thinking adn reading, it is of my opinion that Coolie is NOT a breed but a type due to not having a standard. Too much inconsistency in the breed to breed true as a breed should.

I could go to the pound and find a dog that has the exact same structure and look as field labs, but that doesn't mean a) the dog is all, most, or even at all labrador, or b) the dog is going to be capable of being a working hunting companion. Same goes for GSDs/Aussies or BCs/most Northern Breeds.
BUT...those breeds have standards, you can judge a dog by. Coolies have no standard. They also don't produce consistently across the board. I'd love to know the breeds that went into making this "breed". They seem like fun dogs, but someone needs to step up and make it a breed or not.
 

Airn

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Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.



How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?

Not to mention that the Kelpie is also famous for running on the backs of sheep. I'm not a Kelpie expert. Personally, I think my dog looks like a herding mix. And that's probably what she is. Just so happens she looks the most like a Kelpie and it happens to be a 'breed'.

I think it's great that Avalon breeds dogs that are working dogs. I think it really just comes to a matter of preference.

I prefer breeds that are simple. I want to know what I'm getting myself into. It's not JUST about looks, but that's how most people determine what breed a dog is. The look of it. For people who don't research every breeder of a breed, this makes sense.

Some people breed for work, others are not focused on the working aspect of the dog. I don't think this is really a problem.

What are the main differences between a C/Koolie and a Kelpie or other Aus. herding breeds? There are too many similarities in these herding breeds. It's so confusing.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.



How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?
Good post, great example.
 
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Thought I would be rude commenting on ZipTies thread but yet really wanted to answer the questions posed, such valid questions:

Registries available for information and record keeping on this breed:
.Koolie Club of Australia
.Working Koolie Club
.Aus. Coolie Council
.International GC Society & Registry Aus.branch
.International GC Society & Registry USA branch

They all have a code of ethics and a breed standard (some differ from others), records of dogs and kennels. German Coolies have had a record kept of them in Aus and overseas by the IGCS&R.

They have been bred for working stock, large numbers of sheep or cattle over big arid spaces. Best worker to best worker is how this breed came about existing. They are upright workers and do not "lock on" to stock, very fluid, quiet and confident. Preserving them as "working dogs" is very important to this breeds history, it is what made them so special in the first place. They "back sheep", short cut to gates, fence stuck sheep, splitting up in chutes...they will jump on top of the sheep and run across their backs, the handler then give a "drop" command and dog drops into the herd to push....this is a trait particular to the coolie, and personally this is one of the traits that leads coolies to want to climb things, and explains how they are built to clear 6ft fencing from a stand still.

They have started to catch the eye of sport homes around the world, Finland, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, USA, for sports like agility, flyball, rallyo and so much more...but we must not forget about what they were bred for in all of the excitement. And as the breed begins to establish itself overseas I do strongly believe breeders (aus and others) need to be diligent in whom they allow breeding rights to...preservation of their herding instinct, health, history and stable temperament depends on it. The qualities found in working dogs (stock) are what makes these dogs versatile at all the other things people are wanting to use them for.

Breeding rights are NOT just a RIGHT...its a privilege. In my case using my dogs on stock was VERY important to my breeders decision to send me dogs with breeding in the future on the table. In 2007 when we brought our first coolies over we understood we were introducing a new breed to North America and having different lines for a healthy gene pool was crucial and having the right combinations were even more important, basically having a plan for where we were going with this...One of my boys was 8 months, another was 11months, one girl was 4months and only one of my imports was actually 8 weeks when we greeted them at the airport...the check list had to check out first before anyone was going to come overseas...working ability, right lines, right combos, right temperament, right time and more...One of the things I do respect Linds breeder for is his passion for coolies remaining a working breed, and to have proven working parents for breeding.

One of the reason I do not allow breeding contracts (other then being burnt once before) is to monitor that all these important points are being met. There is no need to "shape" this breed anywhere (USA or other), it is perfect just the way it is...if bred for specifics (sport specifics) the breed might not look, act or be the same in 5 to 7 years overseas because in AUs they are 95% of the time bred for stock. There is enough division in this breed that we do not need to add a geographical element to this division. By that I mean if now USA coolie lines look and act differently by loosing their herding ability then now we will have German Coolies, Australian Koolies and American K?Coolies....^sigh

Now I know we must revisit the health testing thing, and honestly from someone who needed these dogs to work the ranch and represent my training abilities, certification has never been a concern for me (even while placing pups over the last 6 years with sport homes), mainly because amongst working ranchers it is just not important. Certification is important to dedicated performance homes more so then us ranchers. So I understand the desire to have these certification for guarantee for their dogs career as a champion...I, myself, had never experienced the passion behind such tests until Chaz, and for the professional goals set by these sport homes it should be important for you when you are investing $1000+ for your next champion. So I think if I do choose to go more seriously into "the niche" of sports I will have to certify my dogs for sure...I am not against dogs being tested, not at all...just never saw the benefit for me...but yes there is benefit for the buyer for sure...and the breed when there is a history of HD and I might continue to take interest in the process as we go...if this breed keeps moving forward in this direction (performance) it might have to be sooner rather then later.
I think what transpired in my welcome thread, other then my caught off guard by the passion behind certification, was my fear that this breed is being “popularized†and impulsively mass imported with the sole purpose of targeting the dog sport performance “market†or “niche†(terms I would never use in my breeding program). I do apologize for my reaction, and my history with Linds and Sara should not have anything to do with any of you.

I truely am wanting to share a different point of view and angle on this amazing breed with people who obviously are interested in learning more. And I hope to be able to do that with you all.

"MUST" was never used when mentioning big arid spaces...coolies can do either or, and ALL...versatility is a breed trait, they can do anything you ask them to do...standars are in each registry, code of ethics, meetings, minute records, explusion terms and legal matters...in each club. Again, variety within the breed YES, consistency amongst breeders YES, difference between Coolie and Koolie YES (obvious to even some here already), breed standard to adhere to YES (ex: straight across the board in all clubs in breed standard: brindle is not a accepted color...just one example from text refrence)
 

CharlieDog

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I think Koolies are more of a type than a breed, and I completely understand what Adrianne is saying, but I can't really articulate the point. But I get it.

But, on the other hand, if most people who know what a Koolie is can look at a short coated BC with prick ears that's merle and know it's a BC and not a Koolie, or an ES that's the same and know it's not a BC, but an ES and definitely not a Koolie, how can that not be a breed?

There's something similar overall in the Koolie's structure that makes it look like a Koolie to me. Even with the PyrSheps, because I don't KNOW that breed, I can't tell they were all PyrSheps, but someone who DOES; CAN.

Border Collies come in the same amount of variety as Koolies. Short coat, smooth coat, merle, bi, tri, red, dilute, ect, I can find a 20 pound BC and a 60 pounder and they're both STILL Border Collies, so are we arguing that they're a landrace now too? That the only difference is that Border Collies have a very distinct style of working that's been exaggerated?

Also, I'm really really really have terrible dejavu over this post, and thread. I feel like we've discussed this exact topic before...
 

Aleron

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I stand strong that they are as inconsistent as Doodles and the likes. Plus, without a breed standard, what are the breeders breeding towards? That leaves too much variance in the breed.
Border Collies have only very recently in their history had a written breed standard. And I'd say that breed standard is totally dismissed by the majority of breeders in the breed. They have historically been defined by their herding style. And as I think was mentioned, they have an open registry that allows dogs of unregistered or unknown or technically any breed to registered as a BC...if they can herd like a BC.

Perhaps Koolies...or Coolies undeniably all herd like K/Coolies?

FWIW I can spot a Doodle from a block away LOL They can vary in size and coat type but they all look like Doodles. I see Doodles all the time at work and I never wonder if they are or aren't Doodles. Now it's a bit harder to tell if they are Lab x Poodle or Golden x Poodle and if they are Doodle x Doodle, it gets trickier. But IME the first generation crosses all look like Doodles. And the Doodles bred back to Poodle offspring are pretty recognizable and a lot more consistent.

I'm slightly confused how people choose their breeders if they prefer dogs without consistency. That said, I give. I don't really have enough engaged to challenge further. To each their own, I prefer to know what I'm getting in a litter of pups such as moderately predictable structure, consistent temperaments, relatively arched drives, and generalized looks but not everyone prefers not to buy the same. If I every plan to play the spice of variety game I'll buy a mystery from a shelter.

My Belgians are pretty consistent, although vary as individuals do. I know Belgians well enough that I can know where certain traits come from and know the look of certain dog's kids/grandkids. It takes time to be that familiar with a breed. Most people see my multiple Black Dogs and say "I don't know how you can tell them apart, they look identical!".

There's consistency in PyrSheps but their looks vary a lot. You really don't necessarily know what you'll get looks wise. Savvy was supposed to be SF but he's a RF demi. They all play the same though, they all are obsessed with their people and they all are interested in leaping, climbing, running fast and being crazy (or at least, they all should be). I get a kick out of watching Silvia Trkman's videos because her PyrSheps act like Savvy who acts like the PyrSheps I see around. Their tolerance of strangers varies the most I guess and their reaction to strange stuff. I suspect they would all work sheep in a similar manner but I don't have enough experience to say.

I do understand what you are saying about Koolies and breeds and the definition of breed. Perhaps Koolies are more of a landrace?

"Dog landraces and the selectively-bred, formalized dog breeds derived from them vary greatly, depending on their origins and purpose. All dog types are essentially derived from the gray wolf. The process of how dogs were domesticated is best illustrated by the experiments undertaken by Dmitri Belyaev in the old Soviet Union with the silver fox, which eventually created the domesticated silver fox.[9] or by the genome-wide association studies of Elaine Ostrander[10] at the NIH. The Border Collie breed is derived from a same-named landrace that is used as a herding dog and varies in appearance: ears pricked upright to nearly dropped, varied fullnesses of coat, and so on. However, they are recognised as Border Collies by their general appearance and most of all by their unique manner of herding sheep. In contrast to the landrace, in the Border Collie breed show-quality individuals very closely match a "breed standard" appearance but might not be particularly good at herding sheep and might not have a coat suitable for outdoor life. Similarly, the ancient landrace of the Middle East that led to the Saluki breed excels in running down game across open tracts of hot desert, but show-quality individuals of the breed might not be able to chase and catch hares in the desert. The now extinct St. John's water dog landrace was native to the island of Newfoundland. It was the foundational breed for a number of purpose-bred dogs, such as the Labrador Retriever, and Chesapeake Bay Retriever, as well as the Newfoundland. Another example of a comparatively recent North American landrace that developed from European dogs is the Carolina Dog (also called Yellow Dog, and which has also been established now as a formal breed). The mountain dog is more of a complex of similar and not always related breeds and landraces, and is the common working dog type of mountain environs of central Eurasia. An Old World canine landrace is the Armenian Gampr dog."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landrace
 
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I myself am only experienced with handling stock with coolies, i have never worked another breed. It is hard for me to give comparisons in that regards. I can only tell you how mine work...and how versatile they are for any job. Large spaces, small confined shutes, sorting, driving, they work calm and collected no intensity, very cool no rush at all, like i said before i work my boy and girl with more eye and crawl for trial...independent thinkiers and my all time favorite is Gunnah and Akili and our 15 acre 3/4 fenced hgrazing pasture...no fence on road ditch side of rectangle (1000ft) and the two work the perimeter on their own to maintain sheep in pasture...

I can then take Akili with me to a aggressive dog rehab session for 2 hours no problem...these guys can just mold to the task at hand no matter what it is...
And then the next day i might want to lay in bed and watch some marathon on Discovery channel or something and they will chill with me no problem
 
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In brief: There was a split in the community about a decade ago or so...over name, breeding practices, breeding stock provenance, politics of all sorts (we came later into the breed ..about 5 years later)
Two to three different fractions came of it...each pursuin their own goals, lines and obviously little to no breeding outside of "fellow" club members...now genetically it only takes 5 to 7 generations to "modify traits" or "set" them for that matter...so there is a explanation in the differences in that departement, what started as a political conflict in a breed has over the years in the different breeding lines created a physical difference yes...obvious but still mostly reflecting the different regions, and stock work they are needed for...but the split did divide the blood lines as well
 
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This might be a "new breed" overseas but it is well established in Aus. There are so many more lines then what you have experienced here. So many....allowing healthy breedings in each fraction...although some do still choose to stay tight...and some still choose to outcross ...some are members of clubs and some are not...I am a member of IGCS&R, thats my preference...those that are not members do have more liberty to do as they please with no standard to adhere to
 
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And "landrace"breed is "picking apart" I think but as a compromise I could maybe think of that term for a bit....I would want to know what makes the difference then between a Landrace and a full blown breed?

Time? (50 years, 100 years, 150 years...), the choice of keeping it "landlocked" (exclusif to siberia, or some region of some sort...to which i would argue Australia being a isolated continent would make it hard for it to be any other way..) dogs being bred only from a small gene pool?....
 

Laurelin

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Could you give a quick breakdown of which registry promotes which dogs? What countries they're in, etc? I am still very confused by the k/c thing.
 
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