Confused about house breaking....

Rokell

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#1
Our 13 week old puppy is pretty much house broken. He barks at the door when he needs to go out and then he goes outside and he gets a treat and a lot of praise. But, for some reason I keep finding these little pee spots here and there. Last night he peed four times - in a row in vitually the same area of the rug! He went - I sternly said "Pee Pee No!" I put him outside and said "Pee Pee Out" and I cleaned up. Then I let him back in. Repeat the same scene four times within a three minute period. The last time this happened he was barking and running around me like it was a big game.

I felt so frustrated I put him on his leash and tied him to the door knob in the kitchen. Time out. I just don't get it. I am at a loss. What could he be thinking?

Thanks for any input! :confused:

PS He also seems to have these "accidents" when I leave the room we are in for even just a couple of seconds. He barks and or growls and just pees.
 

Saje

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#2
First of all your dog is not housebroken. He should not be left unsupervised at all until he is completely housebroken. You are allowing this 'accidents' to happen. So, if you are cratetraining go back to the basics with that or put him in a puppy-proof room or tie the pup to your waist so he can't get out of your site. At 13 weeks he can only hold his bladder for a few hours and will need to go out regularly on a strict schedule. It sounds like he might be marking his territory or covering another smell. Use an enzyme cleaner like petastic to clean up the mess and don't let him do it anymore!
 

Doberluv

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#3
That is so sad that you expect a 13 week old infant dog to be housebroken and when he goes where he went before, thinking that is the toilet.....because you didn't supervise him...then he gets yelled at and scolded sternly.....just so sad to me. Your puppy is still in the guessing stage as to where he should go. At 13 weeks it is doubtful that he has had a sufficient history of reinforcement to exclude any variables which affect the repitition of a reliably correct response....or to get out of the guessing stage. Six months is an average age for a fairly reliably potty trained puppy...some take less, some more. My Doberman was about 9 or 10 months, past dogs less. Would you yell at an infant human baby for wetting his diaper? Please read the sticky thread on potty training. That is what it is there for....to help people. Please lower your expectations of your pup. Learn what is normal behavior, physical capabilities and different stages. Let your puppy be a puppy. Don't erode the trust in you by sterness and punishment.
 

Olivia

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#4
Sorry to but in , another question on the same subject.
My Isabella 11 weeks old now has never peed inside but that is because I take her out after a play, after a sleep ,after everything ,I am in and out all day long. I did not want to use news paper . Well when I take her outside she has a special place where she does it. My question is will she ever learn to go to the door if I keep getting in first and taking her outside? She sleeps 6 or 7 hours during the night and then I take her out ,I dont wait for her to ask me as I am a bit deaf. Am I doing the right thing? I am thinking maybe not.Also should I have made this another thread? sorry if that is the case.
Great site this. Love from Olivia.
 

Rokell

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#5
Saje... I am home all day and I do have him on a tight schedule. After he eats, sleeps, plays, after car rides or at least every 1 to 2 hours. He has been coming along amazingly - 90% of the time. He is in a supervised area - the kitchen. All other rooms are blocked off and I do use a product called "Out" expecifically made for that purpose. I guess I was fooling myself and was being naively optimistic thinking he clearly got the idea. I do believe he does get it since he does go to the door numerous times during the day and barks. He has had accidents while I'm playing with him and been watching him though; it just happens so fast!


Doberluv.....I'm trying my best to train this puppy and I do realize it is alot of hard work with delayed gratification. I did not say I yelled at my dog. I spoke sternly in hopes of relaying the message that it is not acceptable to pee inside the house. How else am I supposed to teach this? By not saying anything or by whispering in his ear? (No sarcasm intended) I also put his harness on and tied his leash to the door knob because I wanted to break the pattern we were in; four times in less than five minutes is a little discouraging. I needed the time out and so did he. And, no, I would never yell at my baby for peeing in his diapers; that is exactly what they are for.

Please don't get me wrong....I love my puppy to pieces and would never loose my temper and mistreat him if that is what you are thinking. I did not realize I came across as such a tyrant of an owner. I will try to keep realistic expectations and keep on trying to learn the ropes.
 

makka619

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#6
*Always supervise your pup inside, yes it's a lot, but you need to catch him in the act of peeing inside to be effective in teaching him it is wrong.
*Every time he pees inside, interrupt with a stern "NO", promptly carry him outside and allow him to finish his business. When he does: praise and treat.

*Take your pup outside frequently. Use your best judgment. After drinks/meals is always a good time. As frequently as every half hour/hour until he shows signs of improvement and you can gradually increase the duration.

*Dogs tend to sniff the ground when they need to go, when he does, quickly take him outside.

*Always supervise your dog when you take him out to go to the toilet. You need to reinforce the good behavior (going potty outside) as often as possible, by praising and treating like crazy.

*If your pup has peed inside, and you didn't catch him, it is too late. All you can do is clean up the mess. It is important you use a strong disinfectant that clears the smell completely. Dogs like to pee in the same spot, and they will always find the scent unless you get rid of the smell.

*Keep an eye on where he goes outside. It is likely he will be returning to the same spot. When you take him outside to go potty you can take him to this spot.

In the end, it's up to you. In order for your pup to succeed he needs to be given more opportunities for success and less for failure.

Good luck.
 

Doberluv

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#7
I absolutely do not agree with being stern and giving a stern "NO." Anything which frightens a puppy will work against you in training. If you see him in the act (which you shouldn't if you're supervisng wella and taking him out often, at least every hour) interrput him with an "eh" or clap your hands, just to interupt him but not to frighten him. There are reasons why an absense of aversives in training DO work to teach. When you ask how else is he suppose to know without telling him he's done somethin "wrong"....I'll tell you how he chooses to use the out of doors without causing fear and intimidation to a puppy. And I'll tell you why punishment is contra-indicated. But first, you must understand that dogs do not understand "right" and "wrong" in a moral sense that we do. They do not have our values and do not understand why going on the carpet is a "wrong" thing. It's perfectly normal to them. In the wild, they choose their own place to go. So, why would it be "wrong" for them to go inside? Why would they be thinking about what is in our minds, our values? We have to show them and show them with gentle patience and consistancy.

First of all, if the puppy has an accident inside, it is caused by a couple of reasons. 1) He doesn't have perfect control over his bladder or bowels at this age. The urge to go can come on quickly and suddenly sometimes and perhaps not so suddenly other times. He's still developing physically as well as mentally. 2) Until a dog has had a strong history of reinforcement for a behavior, he is guessing. He goes in your livingroom and gets scolded sternly. Ok.....does he know that you mean going in the living room is morally wrong or could he think going in front of you is scary? Or does he think that this room is not a safe place to go, maybe I'll try behind the furniture or the guest room. So he goes in the guest room next time since the other room brought bad results. Or since he got scolded for going to the bathroom, is going to the bathroom the scary thing? Should he not go to the bathroom at all and just hold it until he can't hold it any longer? Or hide it behind the couch? When you take him out, is he going to stop going in front of you since he got scolded while going in front of you before? How is he suppose to know that you meant not to go on the carpet indoors? He is guessing for a long time. You manage to let him outside and he goes and gets praised and a cookie a few times. Good things happen outside. But....and this is important....just because he gives a few correct responses and he gets good things outside doesn't mean he's had ample reinforcement over a long enough period of time to get the behavior reliable. After all, he has been reinforced a few times for going inside too, reinforcement meaning, it's easy, its warm, soft carpet (dogs like absorbant places). It worked. Dogs do what works. He is still guessing. When there has been a strong history of reinforcement for going in the only place....(outside) what will he tend to choose? The place where he's gotten treats and praise lots of times? Or the place where he has NOT gotten treats and praise? What muddies up the water is that just being able to relieve himself is also a reinforcer and going on the carpet is easy, absorbant and comfortable. It is also reinforcing. So you have to make the outside the ONLY place where he gets a payoff. And it has to happen for a long time....he's only 13 weeks old.

Now....if he is prevented from going inside at all but is given good things when he goes outside it makes the list of places to go easy. The list of where NOT to go (inside) is much, much longer. He guesses one room, then another, then behind the couch, then maybe in the back bedroom. But if outside is the ONLY place where he goes, that makes the choices a lot more narrowed down.....only one place where he gets wonderful things; praise/cookies, a party. But it takes many repititions to build a behavior, just as it takes an athelete many repititions to build muscles. It also takes some maturity on your puppies part.

Stern punishment (whether it's to the point of abuse or not) undermines your puppy's trust in you as his teacher. It erodes the relationship. It causes a puppy to distrust you enough that he is unable to learn things as well because he is thinking of ways to avoid an aversive instead of thinking of ways to earn a reward. When you prevent unwanted behavior by setting up the environment for success (and there are many ways of doing this) and you reinforce wanted behavior, the wanted behavior will be repeated and the unwanted behavior will extinguish. This is behavioral law. It is not necessary to use aversives, stern "no" to train a dog. A negative reward marker is often used....that is...you let the dog know that....."That wasn't it, try this instead." But that does not mean intimidating or making the puppy nervous with a stern voice which can frighten a young puppy especially. You can read more about a no reward marker if you decide to study a little bit of operant and classical conditioning. There is a very specific way to teach the dog what that means.

If you read the sticky in the training forum about potty training, there are some very thorough tips. It sounds like you're doing quite well but there's room for even more supervision. It's a tough road with a puppy but when they do make an accident, it is not their fault, but rather the owner's for slipping up on supervision. If you just remember that the list of where not to go (or what not to do with other behavior) is much, much longer than the list of what TO do. It's much less complicated to prevent unwanted behavior and to make sure there is no payoff for unwanted behavior. When there is a payoff, the behavior will be repeated. When there is no payoff or (reinforcement) the behavior WILL extinguish. That is behavioral law, as surely as an apple falling off a tree is a law of physics....gravity.(A reinforcer is not always something we provide. Some behaviors are self reinforcing.)
 

carlar

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#8
Wow, I was going to respond to your question but I think enough has been said. Don't let anything anyone says upset you. It is just their opinion.
 

makka619

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#9
I think a “no” is sufficient. Stern may NOT be the right word. I think enough to startle the pup so he stops in his tracks. Don’t whisper, but don’t scream. It is the same as clapping, a means to get him to stop. I am not saying to punish or to scare, it is an interruption to get him outside to finish. IMO

Once again, your goal is to help your puppy to succeed, and supervision is key.

Anyway here is a link to the sticky on housebreaking (plus there are so so many threads on it!): http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4679
 

Doberluv

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#10
Wow, I was going to respond to your question but I think enough has been said. Don't let anything anyone says upset you. It is just their opinion.
Who's opinion are you referring to and what specifically are you implying is upsetting about it?
 

Herschel

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#11
Great advice here. Rokell, if you follow it completely you will have a reliable dog in no time.

However, like Doberluv, I also don't agree with the using "No!" to somehow teach your puppy that going inside is bad. The best way to house-train a dog is by teaching her that going outside is the best thing ever.

Doberluv, I think Carlar was just telling the OP not to feel bad about this. A lot of first-time dog owners/puppy trainers often get the puppy blues from feeling like they've done something wrong.
 

Saje

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#12
Saje... I am home all day and I do have him on a tight schedule. After he eats, sleeps, plays, after car rides or at least every 1 to 2 hours. He has been coming along amazingly - 90% of the time. He is in a supervised area - the kitchen. All other rooms are blocked off and I do use a product called "Out" expecifically made for that purpose. I guess I was fooling myself and was being naively optimistic thinking he clearly got the idea. I do believe he does get it since he does go to the door numerous times during the day and barks. He has had accidents while I'm playing with him and been watching him though; it just happens so fast!

If he was on a tight schedule he wouldn't have a chance to go in the house now would he? ;)

I don't think that Out is an enzyme cleaner. The manufacturer may say that is what it is designed for but most cleaners only remove the smell for human noses, not dogs. That's a world of difference when you are housetraining.

Accidents do happen. Just be consistent and patient and don't have such high expectations. If you scare your dog when you catch him peeing he will learn that peeing is a bad thing to do in front of you NOT that peeing in the house is a bad thing. He has no way of knowing the difference and if he gets scared enough or is a timid or cheeky dog he will just figure out how to hide from you while you are doing it. You don't want to find puddles behind the couch do you?

I'd follow doberluvs advice and just keep at it. It takes time but you will get there.
 

makka619

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#13
Great advice here. Rokell, if you follow it completely you will have a reliable dog in no time.

However, like Doberluv, I also don't agree with the using "No!" to somehow teach your puppy that going inside is bad. The best way to house-train a dog is by teaching her that going outside is the best thing ever.

Doberluv, I think Carlar was just telling the OP not to feel bad about this. A lot of first-time dog owners/puppy trainers often get the puppy blues from feeling like they've done something wrong.
That's all I think it was about. All you can do is ask and learn.


Of course, when an accident happens, you never punish, scowl or intimidate your pup.

with no… the idea isn’t to ‘scare’ him. Clap, if you like. But don't you need to stop him when he is peeing inside?

I think No can be used without scaring or intimidating the pup. It’s a diversion, nothing more, nothing less.

We used NO with Gordy, - not harshly- took him outside to ‘his spot’ and he finished the deed, followed with lots praise and treats. It didn’t take him long to catch on. He was trained completely by 41/2 months.
 

Rokell

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#14
Thanks!

Thanks to everyone for your helpful suggestions and constructive critcism. :hail:

After reading and taking it all in I think I see and understand this whole housebreaking process from a different light. I feel more confident and less perplexed by the shortcomings I've encountered.

We all share the love of dogs and I see there is room for personal style within the principles of housebreaking.

Thanks again!

PS Doberluv thanks for the long explanation. I see where you are coming from. :)
 

Doberluv

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#15
I tried to explain in detail so you wouldn't think I was just being a meanie. My first post was a little melodramatic but that's how I felt at that moment. I do get a little emotional sometimes...to a fault. (must be menopause)

Did you check out that sticky thread about potty training? I think it's in the training forum up on top. There are lots of good posts there. You may pick up some extra tips that might help. I think you're probably doing better than you think. You're just frustrated. It IS really difficult to be super duper diligent about watching a puppy every second and I do understand how accidents happen. Heaven knows....I had more than I had planned on. But I did know that it was my fault, not the puppy's. I just breathed deeply, took Puppy outside, came back in, cleaned up. Puppies are frustrating and a real pain in the patootie sometimes. Hang in there.
 

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