How young is too young to spay & neuter?

I've had intact APBTs and altered APBTs. As far as muscle mass and conditioning goes, I bet very few people could see a side-shot comparison between one of each and guess accurately as to which is which.

Personally, I wanted my catch dogs s/n so I could hunt whenever.

I'm not saying some digs don't have issues, but I wouldn't blame all issues on a dog being s/n. You can't paint them all with a paintbrush, especially while fighting the same stereotyping about intact dogs.

The fact is that there are medical pros and cons on both sides of the issue. There might not ever truly be a right answer, but there won't rarely be a wrong one. People need to make this educated decision for themselves.

Haha, Sally, I read through the thread and kept clicking "quote" on your posts -- so I'll just say that I agree with much of what you've said.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the size or state of my dog's genitalia or coat or legginess (except and only to the extent that it causes real structural issues -- and as far as I know, there is no study that has definitively shown that legginess is a health issue).

Bells was neutered early (6 mos) and I absolutely wish I'd waited longer, and, frankly, it's probably apparent that he was neutered early (lanky build). However, I don't have any reason to believe, and don't really believe, that any of his health issues have anything to do with his neutering -- I think that's primarily bad genetics with the extra strikes of being a rescue (and lack of health care for his mom during her pregnancy and him early on) and possibly (and I think likely) from being over-vaccinated at a young age.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and my girls will always be spayed at some point. Since Grace is a golden and at a higher risk for various cancers (and not at a particularly high risk for mammary cancer), I'll wait at least 2 years, hopefully up to 4 if I can handle it (!), but then she'll be spayed. From everything I've read, the determination of when to spay really should be on a case-by-case and breed-by-breed basis -- I don't think there is a rule that fits all.

I don't know about boys. I may neuter around the same time period as I would for girls because I prefer, all else being equal, to have sterile dogs. But I don't feel as strongly about neutering boys, because they don't have the same health risks from being left intact that girls do, and maybe I never would neuter.

I do think that shelters and rescues should spay and neuter before dogs and cats leave.

Ya know, you can giggle all you want about dog genitalia, but understand that those of who are concerned believe it indicates underdevelopment in other areas we can't see. We're not embarrassed to have a dog with a small penis because the other dogs will laugh at him.

And btw, "spay coat" isn't about length, it's about texture. And you might change your tune if you had ever dealt with a truly nasty spay coat on a coated breed. It's not pleasant if you remotely enjoy outdoor activities with your dog. The fine wooly texture holds water, smell, burrs, sticks, leaves, and is extremely difficult to brush out and keep clean. It's a burden on dog and owner, frankly.

If it doesn't matter to you, then no worries, but rest assured it's not appearances for those that are concerned.

I don't know that there's any study, but I was just reading a veterinary trade magazine article today at work about Cranial Cruciate Ligament Disease, and it mentioned early spay/neuter as a risk factor. It's less "legginess" that's a problem and more that growth plates don't close at the proper times, which changes the angles of the joints. Incorrect angulation in the knees puts undue stress on the ligaments, and with time and that chronic excess stress, they can develop small tears and eventually tear completely. Few CCL injuries are due to some sort of dramatic accident like stepping in a hole while running. Most are the result of day-to-day activity.

Going price on a cruciate repair is $3000+ around here. For one knee. The majority of dogs who blow one will blow both.

I'll wait until growth plates are closed to alter. Is spay/neuter the end-all-be-all dictating factor on blown knees? No. But it's one thing I can do to stack the deck in my dog's favor.

It broke my heart the day we had a client whose dog had just been diagnosed with prostate cancer say that she thought that neutering was supposed to prevent prostate cancer. No. No it doesn't. Neutered dogs are at a higher risk of prostate cancer. There are so many misunderstandings on the part of most dog owners. That is what bothers me. Not that people would still choose to spay/neuter at six months or whatever their vet recommends. But that people aren't being given the full story.

I didn't giggle or denigrate -- I said that those weren't factors that influenced *my* decision-making and thought process.

I have a 4 yo male with a host of health issues and a 7 mo old female who is at a heightened risk for cancer. Small penises (though B's seems normal enough to me) and spay coat are, frankly, the least of my concerns.

However, I'll reiterate this in case you missed it: this is a topic that I have spent a lot of time reading, talking with experts and thinking about when making the decision for my puppy. I just weight factors differently than you.

I don't disagree with you at all. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link, tbh. And, as I said, I wish B hadn't been neutered so early; I certainly wouldn't sterilize before maturity again.

I also think that you and I may be focused on different things -- with your dogs, athletic injury, and, with my golden, cancer. I really do think that it's an important decision that should be made on an individual basis.

Also, ITA on education. I was surprised that vets I know well, quite like and generally trust recommended that I spay Gracie at 6 months. A lot of people cite mammary cancer (and pyo) as reasons to spay -- but she's at a much higher risk for hemangiosarcoma and lymphosarcoma, and staying intact for longer potentially lessens those risks.

As far as I know, although there is a study underway about this, it's all speculation at this point.

Personally, how I suspect it will pan out is that the really wee s/n (8-10 weeks) will increase the risk, but traditional s/n (greater than 6 months or anytime after that) won't. But that's just speculation on my part.

LMAO! Seriously! I am so embarassed of my dogs little ween!!!

It really is disturbing to see underdeveloped body parts, because you cannot see what is underdeveloped or effected inside.

I won't neuter/spay another dog unless I have to, and I'll only rescue another dog from people that trust me enough to wait until the dog is full grown, if I MUST. Altering dogs does have a place among average dog owners! But I feel that Vets should not encourage altering puppies as early as possible, rather as late as possible.

You know all the girl dogs are laughing at him!!! :rofl1:

Exactly this. Nobody is giggling. Just because some of us who have altered dogs weighed pros, cons, and priorities differently than you did does not mean that we made the decision lightly or without being informed.

Poor Fozz won't get any play from Keeva. :,(

I wonder if spay coat depends on what you start off with. Once again, Summer has a nice coat post spay but it is longer than when she was intact. But the texture is nice and she doesn't collect burs.

Mia... she has a very soft, downy coat and everything sticks to it. I spent a long time yesterday afternoon pulling out seeds from her run off into the forest chasing a rabbit venture yesterday. On the plus side, she's much better for cuddles.

Then again I do wonder if it goes back to Summer having puppies before being spayed.

Yeah, I don't deny that are multiple factors for sure, and some dogs don't change much at all. But pre-spay Macky's coat with promising to be closer to what Ollie's looks like. Now it's like someone glued cotton balls on her legs. -_- *sigh* But Cockers are notorious for bad altered coats.

Hey, never say never! She likes dogs that are shaped like she is.

Man, if I had a Golden girlie, I'd be awfully heartsick over whether or not to spay. On the one hand, I'm scared to death of pyo. On the other, freaking hemangio, especially cardiac hemangio. And speutering increases the risk of that by a significant amount, especially in a breed where it's depressingly common.

I've always wondered about that leggier thing. By far the leggiest dog in this house is Izzie and she went through two (or maybe three?) heats before being spayed. Chai went through one and is the least leggy, and Ruby was spayed right at 6 months before a heat and is medium. Chai also has a thicker head and heavier bone/muscle and Izzie is the leanest. Izzie has a bit of saggy belly skin though.

I wish izzy was spayed before her heats, a 20" pug would be awesome.

She only has 7" to go! Stretch, pug, stretch! Or maybe she could wear lifts in her shoes.

I saw a lot of different ages for spaying/neutering working at the clinic but nothing really of note. The yorkie breeder we saw a lot had most (if not all) of her male puppies neutered before they went to new homes at 14 weeks old; because the #1 reason for return was marking in the house. We often times had 3-4 male pups in on one day.

As for my own dogs... Buzz was neutered at 28 months old because there was absolutely no way we could guarantee he wouldn't impregnate Bailey... as a baby! She was 8 months old when he was neutered. She was spayed very soon after her first heat as we realized we also weren't equipped to deal with an intact female responsibly.

I've often speculated that part of the reason Bailey is so structurally poor is that she was spayed in the middle of the puppy uglies and just never came out of them. The other very real possibility is that she just got the crapsh!t genes from a complete outcross breeding. I'll never know I guess. She's looked like a gangly teenager her whole life, I just used to hide it with a lot of hair.

And on the coat front, I thought she had really bad spay coat but it was pretty much just that I didn't know how to work with it. Her coat was actually really easy to manage once I figured that out. Now I just shave her completely down most of the time

It's not so much being leggy as the proportions are different. Obviously plenty of dogs are leggy, altered or not and some breeds are defined by being leggy (sighthounds?). But the angulation and porportions tend to be different with dogs altered before maturity. I think it's pretty well known that early altering does affect the growth plates. I guess the question is if people think it matters or not?

Also how early is early depends a lot on the breed/size of dog. A toy breed dog at 4 months is much closer to adult size than say a GSD at 4 months. Ziggy was neutered at 7 or 8 months and is fairly developed but doesn't really have the body of a male Cardi. He was almost his full height already at 8 months though.

Before early altering of dogs was an issue, I had ferrets and saw first hand the differences between early and late alters. Both with pet store ferrets (which are altered at 3-4 weeks) and privately bred ferrets which most pet owners alter by 6 months but that can be easily compared to siblings who are not altered. What I observed in the ferrets was that male pet store ferrets almost never look like male ferrets. Not really. Petstore ferrets tend to be less muscular and "finer" looking, even ones that are fairly large. In privately bred siblings, the altered ones in pet homes neutered before 6 months look just a bit "better" in terms of body and masculine features than pet store ferrets but still compared to their intact siblings, the difference is quite obvious. And once neutered no matter what age, male ferrets lose quite a bit of bulk and masculine features. But looks aren't the only thing that early altering (or in some cases altering at all) has an effect on with ferrets. It also sets them up to have Adrenal Disease, one of the most common ferret diseases. So when early altering of puppies was becoming widely accepted all I could think was "this can't be any better for dogs than it is for ferrets".

And I had to laugh at some of the comments about cats. My first cat was intact until he was 2 or 3 and only neutered because I rescued a female cat who had a female kitten and I didn't want to spay the kitten too young The kitten went to live with a friend and was spayed at 9 months I think? The mom cat stayed intact for a couple years too, until going to live with the same friend. These cats never, ever went outside and had no desire to.