Opinions: prong collar/clicker training

Thats a good summation of how I feel about it as well. The prong a tool. Not something I plan on using on him his entire life, but as a 15 month old 90lb pup, it's just a little extra control over him if the situation warrants. As far as the clicker training goes, the TD/CGC trainer we used had us doing clicker training for a couple sessions- I just don't think she knew enough about it to really help us understand how to do it right. Finding adequate instruction is probably the most difficult thing. Even finding an instructor who understands the GSD as a breed is hard- which is why we were so happy to stumble across the K9 guy who gives classes as a side job. He's the 1st trainer we've had who I feel 100% comfortable with because I know he understands my dog.

As an experiment, I just took Gunnar for a 15 minute walk using his harness. I dropped the leash for the last 1/4 mile or so. No prong collar at all, and he was just fine. We even saw some dogs behind fences who barked at us and he ignored them. So much for him only listening with the prong on because he's in fear. I still feel better with him on the prong- I had to give a lot more verbal instruction to him but aside from that he was good.

While all this prong talk is interesting (as always), I think it's deviating a bit from the OP was asking.

All miscellaneous prong debating aside, I do NOT think a prong collar is a good solution for Rags. Poor Rags is afraid of that particular collar. Therefore, it shouldn't be used. Using something that Rags is fearful of will do nothing but erode his trust in his owner.

My last post on this subject . There seems to be some misunderstanding about the way I feel about tools. The point I made about the prong was not that tools are bad but just that there are better options, as effective that require no more skill than the prong. Alternatives to the prong such as No Pull Harnesses and Newtrix require no more education/skill but produce the same control without the negative consequences so often associated with prong collars. I'm not sure why anyone would assume that using positive tools would require more skill than compulsive tools.....the opposite is true in fact. This is exactly what the original post was about.

I see how the newtrix and no pull harness don't require a learning curve. A good part of this discussion revolved around clicker training which in my opinion takes more time and more knowledge to implement.

Also- how does a newtrix or no pull harness change the behavior while walking? Meaning, do people who use these products have the same issues that has been implied for people who use a prong or choker have- that when they go back to the flat collar they have a regression in the dog's performance? Both of these products along with stuff like the haltie seem to be bandaids as well. The only difference is there is not a harder degree of correction with them.

I see what you're saying but the options to the prong collar actually give more control and eliminate the negative feelings to whatever you want the dog to ultimately stop reacting to. All tools, compulsive or otherwise are bandaid's at best without the training that must go along with them.
The difference is that with newtrix and halti no-pull harness, there is essentially no handler delivered correction for the dog to associate to the trigger. The newtrix is a head collar that works on oposition reflex so does not closeline or jerk the dog by the chin...the connection to the leash is at the back rather than on the chin. Also, the halti no pull harness doesn't work on an "induction of pain" design, it simply has the leash attachment at the chest so that lunging causes the dog to turn rather than tightening and under arm pain. With non-compulsive tools you are able to add positive associations if working to desensitize a dog to a trigger (dog, bike) and it also gives you the control required to take the training (loose leash walking, heel) out on the street to add distraction to what hopefully began with no distraction. With the absence of physical correction, anxiety is lessened and training can progress more quickly.

I use the prong on Sadie because she has agression issues. I feal that if she lunges at someone then the prong is less likely to brake as a buckle collar and I have more controll if she doesnt want to back down.

Be VERY careful with that! While at the Ohio State Fair last year(4-H state show) I had a very large(dobe/rott mix) aggressive dog lunge and BREAK the prong with no problems whatsoever. My dog, a tiny cocker spaniel, was attacked by an aggressive dobe. Me being on the other end, the 'victim's mom.. This angers me so much. Cocoa had to go through a about 6 months of desensitizing to large black dogs... If you are going to use a prong, please pleaaase, at least have a back up buckle collar or harness!

She allways has a buckle on with a short lead going from it to the leash.

MPO is that a buckle would be easier to brake than a prong

I bet that the prong wasn't fastened properly on that dog.

ditto

Well, I've never been shy about sharing my opinion on the prong.

The prong collar is the "lazy-man's" way of training. Trainers who encourage most or all of their students to use a prong collar are lazy trainers.

The vast majority of dogs don't require a collar like this to be taught. But people use them because they can .. and using something because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. It's a rare dog that would require something like that, but it's an easy thing for people to use and so they go with it. If they want to "train" using pain, that's their right I suppose.

I have large dogs - German shepherds - and they've been well taught without the use of compulsion. A prong collar IS compulsion, no matter how you look at it. It works through the use of pain to stop a behavior, but that pain doesn't teach the dog. It simply stops the dog at the time the pain happens. Many (if not most) dogs learn not to yank on the collar when they're wearing it, but since they've never actually been taught the proper behavior they go back to lunging and pulling when they're not wearing the corrective collar. This is a training flaw on the part of the handler, not the fault of the dog.

Using a prong collar on a reactive dog is asking for trouble, too. Many dogs (and I've seen this happen time and time again) actually become MORE reactive with the use of a corrective collar. When they lunge at a dog and get a sharp pain around their necks, they associate that with the dog and it increases their fear/aggression/reactiveness. People are fooled into thinking it's working because the pain stops the behavior at the time, but I've seen so many dogs really messed up because the people are thinking of immediate "fixes" and not long term changes.

I've used a prong collar in the past and may in the future. But the reality is that dogs can be and are trained everyday without those types of pain-inducing tools. I'll walk out my front door with Trick off-leash even if there's a moose in the yard, and she will respond to me. She's never been trained with a corrective collar. People don't seem to realize how strong a good motivational reinforcement program is. When you add to that the proper leadership ingrained into the dogs, and consistent fair interactions on a daily basis .. well, you can go a LONG ways with those methods.

I guess I figure I shouldn't punish my dogs for MY shortcomings, and that's what people are doing when they use a corrective collar.

As always, my honest and sometimes unpopular opinion .. *L* .. but I base it on 17 years of training and working with thousands of dogs and their owners.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Update on Rags-guess what I've done??

First let me say how very much I appreciate all the input!!

After having one reasonably good training session followed by one not-so-good session (I'm referring to having Rags secure in the big shed), noticing that he had no problem with commands off leash, he always came when called,using treats & praise, well I decided to just let him go outside off leash & see what would happen.

We live in woods,have HUGE lawn,not near road. In other words I wanted him to have freedom to RUN & know he was trusted. Wish you could have seen him! He ran in circles,ran around the entire house in 4 seconds,rolled in the grass,jumped off/on the deck,he was HAPPY DOG!! He came everytime called & sat on command. He's not had the leash on the past 2 days.

Gets in the car (loves to ride),has not left the yard area,when neighbor dog came over to challenge-Rags just barked once & sat in HIS yard. I had just decided to go with my instincts,not knowing his past training. He's not agressive,he's like a giant puppy!

I'm letting him wear himself out with football/running for at least an hour. He follows me to shed & trailer easily,comes back inside after potty duty.

I can imagine how all of you are probably rolling your eyes right now! What I don't want to do is confuse this dog (or myself). I want him to trust me & WANT to please me. My housemate is going to be a problem, he didn't really want to rescue Rags in the first place, but he knew I did & he also has to admit I need a protector when alone here. So, I've decided to wait until Tues when training begins & let the expert access the dog/me & advise on best method to use.

I actually cried seeing this abused dog have the joy of running free! We have coyotes & deer here, I won't know how he'll react to critters until it happens. If he wants to chase,there might not be any method I can control him with. I don't want to cause him (or me) harm physically or mentally.

Found out Rags survived the Pit Bull attack for 30 minutes! They had to kill the dog to get him off Rags. So I know he's tough! Again I'm just going to keep giving him alot of love/attention but rely on his own good sense to be the dog he is.....

Any comments?

Sounds wonderful! He is ONE happy boy! It just goes to show that you must be making him very glad to come to you. Keep it up. Even when he has to stop the fun outside and you come in, you can continue some more quiet fun so he keeps remembering that it's fun to stop playing outside and come in and that coming to you is ALWAYS a wonderful experience. You've got a knack. Sometimes dogs regress and that's why I say to keep up the good practice. He is one lucky dog.

Since he comes along with you so well off leash, it should be a piece of cake transferring that over to on leash. Just make it worth his while to walk along nicely with you with the leash on. Treat, treat, treat....lol, as long as he's walking nicely, then add a command and then once hes very good at it, vary the times he gets a treat...every few times, every other time, every 7 times, back to every 2 times...so he keeps guessing. Get him in the habit now of giving you the correct response and it will just snowball.

And I bet on the tag of the prong it said "made in america", which, IMO, are made very cheap and dpo break.

I USED the prong on my dog to control him and to "perfect" his training. It is not painful, but more discomfort. I would choose a prong over a halti any day, because they don't tighten on the dogs's face (now that looks very uncomfortable) and my dog hates them. He has never been dependent of the prong because I did most of my training off leash, but then I would use the prong to perfect certain things. It is a wonderful training tool, if used properly, and those trainers who do use them are far from lazy (well some at least) but have realized how useful they can be.

By the way, my dog would ONLY allow me to use the prong, no hati or gentle leader, no harness, nothing. The prong agreed with him better than "less painful" training tools.

I just want to say that Rags is so lucky to be with someone who loves and cares for him so much after the attack. I wish you both all the best in your training and new life together as best friends.

That's right because that's not the way a clicker is used.

Good info by Outline. I also suggest you read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Then you'll see why all your leash "corrections" are nothing more than mistreatment because you're punishing your dog for something he has been undertrained to do, that he doesn't have enough history of reinforcement to be responsible for. Your fault, not his. He is not purposely "disobeying" you. He is motivated by something in his environment which is more interesting to him that what you're providing. He's not being stubborn or bad. He's a dog, not a human.

*sigh*, I love how people can be training evaluators over the internet without ever seeing the dog in question or the behavior. He is not dog aggressive. He gets excited to see the other dogs and when he gets excited he barks at them. He's not being aggressive or anything- I know the signs. He wants to run and see them, which to me, is unacceptable behavior. I will say, he's 1000% better now than he was just a few months ago. We work with him constantly on this - it's really his only weakness. 4 months ago I couldn't walk for 30 minutes or take him to OB class without him behaving badly at every dog we saw. Now, he hardly behaves badly at all. We've gone thru basic OB 3 times- not because he doesn't know the commands- he blows out the other dogs to the point that people ask why we are even in the classes- but we do it to get him used to being around other dogs and to focus on us and not them. It's working. Unfortunately the only place we can go to be around other dogs is training class. 99% of the other dogs we see are fenced in and are worse than he is- running along the fence and barking aggressively at us as we walk by. For him to stay focused while a dog is 10' away doing that, he's made a ton of progress. Once in a while a relapse happens and thats when the prong is used.

I guess what I'm doing with him is not coming across well in print. I'm not stringing this dog up or cracking him with the prong on every mistake he makes. My goal is not to use a prong on him forever. My goal is to have him walk around town with me off leash and behave as expected. He knows what I want and he is continually given positive reinforcement and feedback when he performs as expected. You CAN do that without a clicker. Only when he ignores me and the verbal commands I give will he get the leash correction- it is the last resort, not the 1st choice. It might happen one time on a walk, and most times it doesn't happen at all. By the way, I only use the prong on walks. The rest of our training is done off leash or on leash with a flat collar, and the harshest correction he gets for not doing something he knows how to do is a NO and no reward of ball or tug play. He's taken back to the start and we do it over. When he does it right, lots of praise and ball play.

I not sure what else I can say about it. He misbehaves in a single aspect of his life and he's made huge strides in getting better. Maybe a clicker would have worked, but I have no one to show me how to do it right, and doing it wrong is worse than not doing it at all. If there was a trainer around me who knew what they were doing with a clicker then I'd surely try it, but until then, I'm going to continue to do what has worked so far. It took me a matter of minutes to get him to go thru the tunnel at agility this way, with no prong and nothing but positive encouragement and the right motivation. A clicker wouldn't have been any faster.

Doverluv, I understand his reasons for doing what he does. I agree it is my own shortcoming as his trainer that causes him to find a strange dog more interesting than me. I'm trying to get better, believe me. The progress we have made has been great and he's a phenomenal dog to be around. When a K9 trainer watches me put my dog in a down, walk 50 yards away, recall him, then command him to down while he's 20 yards away and he drops to the ground from a full run, and he tells me we do that better than a lot of their police dogs, something has to be working. We'll get through this bump.

my dog does great off leash too. i only use the leash if we're around traffic or in a situation that might scare her. otherwise, i love letting her be off leash. and she does great. i read a book by Kevin Behan called the Natural Dog (i really like it!) and he has some exercises in there that help build that connection between dog and owner. you can find him on the net. Good luck to you!
take care!