Rhodesian Ridgeback?
- Thread starter Lyzelle
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Comparing nuanced hunting styles of a hunting breed to a pit dog herding livestock is apples and oranges. That's like saying a sheep herding borzoi is comparable to a bird hunting borzoi, and it's most definitely NOT.
Borzoi were bred almost exclusively to course wolves flushed from cover and hold them until the hunters caught up.
However, they excel at hunting in the US. They make fantastic rabbit dogs, fox dogs, coyote dogs, and if it was legal to hunt deer with hounds they'd be great at that too. None of those types of game are within their breed heritage. They hunt that game with a different style than wolves (except maybe coyotes). But that ability doesn't make them incorrect or out of standard. It makes them useful and adaptable.
Out of all the breed traits RR were bred for, adaptability and usefulness among the most highly valued in the RR's past and by their creators.
Borzoi were bred almost exclusively to course wolves flushed from cover and hold them until the hunters caught up.
However, they excel at hunting in the US. They make fantastic rabbit dogs, fox dogs, coyote dogs, and if it was legal to hunt deer with hounds they'd be great at that too. None of those types of game are within their breed heritage. They hunt that game with a different style than wolves (except maybe coyotes). But that ability doesn't make them incorrect or out of standard. It makes them useful and adaptable.
Out of all the breed traits RR were bred for, adaptability and usefulness among the most highly valued in the RR's past and by their creators.
again, utter nonsense. the only thing holding back the RR as a hunting breed in the USA is that most are bred strictly for conformation w/ no regard for actual working ability AND they are priced beyond what most hunters are willing to pay for what is basically a crap shoot pup (about 2-5 times what a well bred cur or hound pup costs). a shockingly good number of conformation & BYB bred RRs are actually hunting. a quick check of baydog classifieds showed 1 litter of purebreds & 3 litters of crosses all from producing hogdogs.
two of the most popular hog hunting breeds in the USA are the catahoula & the blackmouth cur, both of which the majority of the breed run DEAD SILENT. in fact the plott used to be the same way, it wasn't until bear populations dropped that cold hound nose & open mouths were bred in (mostly by the cable & denton families). if running silent & being warm to hot nosed made for poor performance as a hunting dog then why are most primitive/rustic breeds used by subsistance hunters silent trailers w/ only medium noses. in fact, in an environment w/ good game populations, a silent warm nosed dog will put MORE game in the freezer. cold nosed, open mouth hounds were "invented" for sport hunting so that the chase would last LONGER. in fact. even among houndsmen it is "secret" that the guys that rack up the best numbers of trees or catches are guys that have accumulated a pack of dogs that run silent until they have eyes on the game.
and this was clearly written by someone w/ with little or no personal experience running dogs on fur.
two of the most popular hog hunting breeds in the USA are the catahoula & the blackmouth cur, both of which the majority of the breed run DEAD SILENT. in fact the plott used to be the same way, it wasn't until bear populations dropped that cold hound nose & open mouths were bred in (mostly by the cable & denton families). if running silent & being warm to hot nosed made for poor performance as a hunting dog then why are most primitive/rustic breeds used by subsistance hunters silent trailers w/ only medium noses. in fact, in an environment w/ good game populations, a silent warm nosed dog will put MORE game in the freezer. cold nosed, open mouth hounds were "invented" for sport hunting so that the chase would last LONGER. in fact. even among houndsmen it is "secret" that the guys that rack up the best numbers of trees or catches are guys that have accumulated a pack of dogs that run silent until they have eyes on the game.
and this was clearly written by someone w/ with little or no personal experience running dogs on fur.
Sonic's breeder is from GA and she has taken deer w/ her longdogs. My freind Robbie in SC has taken deer w/ two of Sonic's litter mates. he uses curs to push the deer out into the rice fields and catches them w/ his longdogs.
Sonic caught whitetails for me in NC and a muley doe in UT that kicked the crap out of us while i made him let go.
Sonic caught whitetails for me in NC and a muley doe in UT that kicked the crap out of us while i made him let go.
I've never met a bad one 
. Never seen them do much though.
How do these cur types (RRs, Catahoulas, etc) do in say modern dog sports? Ob, agility, and so forth?
. Never seen them do much though.How do these cur types (RRs, Catahoulas, etc) do in say modern dog sports? Ob, agility, and so forth?
if you have access to farm fields you walk the dog on a slip lead just inside the treeline (about 10-20 yards). you try to get between the deer & the trees but close to the tree line. you try to maximize the amount of open space they have to cross to escape that gives the dog the most chance of making a catch.
I am officially jealous.
That is awesome. You hear from various borzoi breeders stories about their dogs bringing down deer unplanned when they're out on walks in big pastures. Usually they're horrified, but I think it's awesome the dogs are still able to do what they're made for. One was even a bitch that was due to whelp a week later.
That is awesome. You hear from various borzoi breeders stories about their dogs bringing down deer unplanned when they're out on walks in big pastures. Usually they're horrified, but I think it's awesome the dogs are still able to do what they're made for. One was even a bitch that was due to whelp a week later.
Pops2, stop bolding the things that prove your point only and read the paragraph as a whole. You can't pick and choose what agrees with your point...the whole thing is true. I'm not picking and choosing...
It seems to me the reaction I am getting from you is that I said "All RR's suck at hunting in the U.S." and that is not what I said. Not even close. There are certain things a breed is suitable to do working wise and certain things that it is not suitable to do. Does that mean that no dog can excel at the things the breed is presumably unsuitable to do? NO, AND I NEVER CLAIMED THAT.
Romy, you are correct. My comparison is a stretch. Let's try something a little different... A Saluki excels at hunting rabbit over open fields, but not at boar hunting. That can be said for the breed, but can that be said for every Saluki as an individual? No. And I never claimed that. So it can be said the Rhodesian Ridgeback will excel at one type of hunting, and not at another. You can say that for the breed, but not for every individual dog and I never said it for every dog. I said it for the breed as a whole, and for that, I am correct.
Please stop misinterpreting me. The RRCUS is very respectable and having talked with several of their members myself, I can tell you first hand that they are definitely knowledgeable about the breed in an all rounded way...behavior, conformation, sport, and work.
It seems to me the reaction I am getting from you is that I said "All RR's suck at hunting in the U.S." and that is not what I said. Not even close. There are certain things a breed is suitable to do working wise and certain things that it is not suitable to do. Does that mean that no dog can excel at the things the breed is presumably unsuitable to do? NO, AND I NEVER CLAIMED THAT.
Romy, you are correct. My comparison is a stretch. Let's try something a little different... A Saluki excels at hunting rabbit over open fields, but not at boar hunting. That can be said for the breed, but can that be said for every Saluki as an individual? No. And I never claimed that. So it can be said the Rhodesian Ridgeback will excel at one type of hunting, and not at another. You can say that for the breed, but not for every individual dog and I never said it for every dog. I said it for the breed as a whole, and for that, I am correct.
Please stop misinterpreting me. The RRCUS is very respectable and having talked with several of their members myself, I can tell you first hand that they are definitely knowledgeable about the breed in an all rounded way...behavior, conformation, sport, and work.
Rhodesians are a hunting dog period. To say anything else is just well... silly.
Just because breeders aren’t upholding the proper temperament doesn’t mean that temperament isn’t still proper. For example, I know plenty of vizslas and weimies who are so timid that they’d probably pee their pants at the sound of a gunshot and run for the hills, but that doesn’t mean these dogs weren’t originally bred as gundogs.
In danes, even though the breed has been systematically dumbed down from a hunter/guardian, it doesn’t take much for those guarding instincts to kick in with many danes, and most danes also still have a very strong prey drive. I imagine it would not take long at all to get a good hunting line going in danes.
The rhodies I knew were in nothing else, versatile and adaptable. Why the RRCUS would say they’re not good for hunting in the US is probably more related to the laws about hunting with dogs in the US than the breed's actual ability.
Like I said, I grew up with a Rhodesian who could have done any kind of hunting you asked of him. His ability to figure things out and adapt to any given situation was just that good.
In that same vein, I have seen rhodies who do agility, who do obedience and rally, all no problem. They’re really versatile dogs.
Was talking to a breeder at a show who also lure courses with her dogs, and she was telling me that a few of hers don’t do well in coursing because they quickly predict where the “bunny†is going to end up, and instead of chasing the bunny throughout the course, veer off course to meet the bunny
That sounds exactly like the sort of problem-solver these dogs are!
Just watched a video of a few rhodies holding a hog at bay and again - super smart dogs. This would be the kind of dog I wouldn’t mind doing this sort of work - they’re smart and agile enough to do it safely. My danes would jump in all brawn and no brain and get hurt
Just because breeders aren’t upholding the proper temperament doesn’t mean that temperament isn’t still proper. For example, I know plenty of vizslas and weimies who are so timid that they’d probably pee their pants at the sound of a gunshot and run for the hills, but that doesn’t mean these dogs weren’t originally bred as gundogs.
In danes, even though the breed has been systematically dumbed down from a hunter/guardian, it doesn’t take much for those guarding instincts to kick in with many danes, and most danes also still have a very strong prey drive. I imagine it would not take long at all to get a good hunting line going in danes.
The rhodies I knew were in nothing else, versatile and adaptable. Why the RRCUS would say they’re not good for hunting in the US is probably more related to the laws about hunting with dogs in the US than the breed's actual ability.
Like I said, I grew up with a Rhodesian who could have done any kind of hunting you asked of him. His ability to figure things out and adapt to any given situation was just that good.
In that same vein, I have seen rhodies who do agility, who do obedience and rally, all no problem. They’re really versatile dogs.
Was talking to a breeder at a show who also lure courses with her dogs, and she was telling me that a few of hers don’t do well in coursing because they quickly predict where the “bunny†is going to end up, and instead of chasing the bunny throughout the course, veer off course to meet the bunny
That sounds exactly like the sort of problem-solver these dogs are!
Just watched a video of a few rhodies holding a hog at bay and again - super smart dogs. This would be the kind of dog I wouldn’t mind doing this sort of work - they’re smart and agile enough to do it safely. My danes would jump in all brawn and no brain and get hurt
I think what Barbara is saying is that they have been and ARE used for hunting OTHER types of game, but only by ADAPTING the way the dog was ORIGINALLY intended to hunt. So if you were taking a true to type RR you wouldn't expect it to be working in the way a dog developed for hunting deer blah blah would. They were bred for large game and lions... not sure, but last time I checked the US didn't have a serengeti
Doesn't mean they haven't been and can't be adapted - like MANY MANY MANY other breeds.
Doesn't mean they haven't been and can't be adapted - like MANY MANY MANY other breeds.
There are a couple of Catahoulas around here that run at the masters level. Meg is a Mountain Cur and has her agility championship. I know of a couple of RR I've seen at agility trials, although not ones I've followed closely.
In general, the bigger ones are not particularly fast on course, but can be quite reliable. They are 26" dogs, so are often overshadowed by the big BCs and the retrievers in that height class. Now, how much of that is the result of the dogs not being insanely competitive in the sport, and how much is that the more serious competitors aren't going out seeking the breed to compete with...well, that's anyone's guess.
Meg is in the main BC height class with some of the bigger shelties. She's never going to beat them on speed alone, but is a phenomenal jumper who has pulled maybe 3 bars in all her years competing. So when the fastest dogs start knocking bars to the ground, she's always right there to pick up the top ribbons.
As I said, the Ridgeback trainer I know has very highly titled obedience dogs. I think at least one has an OTCH.
I'd never say "I want to be competitive in agility/obedience, so I'm going to go seek out a cur", but if that is the right breed for you, I think you can be competitive in those sports.
In general, the bigger ones are not particularly fast on course, but can be quite reliable. They are 26" dogs, so are often overshadowed by the big BCs and the retrievers in that height class. Now, how much of that is the result of the dogs not being insanely competitive in the sport, and how much is that the more serious competitors aren't going out seeking the breed to compete with...well, that's anyone's guess.
Meg is in the main BC height class with some of the bigger shelties. She's never going to beat them on speed alone, but is a phenomenal jumper who has pulled maybe 3 bars in all her years competing. So when the fastest dogs start knocking bars to the ground, she's always right there to pick up the top ribbons.
As I said, the Ridgeback trainer I know has very highly titled obedience dogs. I think at least one has an OTCH.
I'd never say "I want to be competitive in agility/obedience, so I'm going to go seek out a cur", but if that is the right breed for you, I think you can be competitive in those sports.
I think what Barbara is saying is that they have been and ARE used for hunting OTHER types of game, but only by ADAPTING the way the dog was ORIGINALLY intended to hunt. So if you were taking a true to type RR you wouldn't expect it to be working in the way a dog developed for hunting deer blah blah would. They were bred for large game and lions... not sure, but last time I checked the US didn't have a serengeti
Doesn't mean they haven't been and can't be adapted - like MANY MANY MANY other breeds.
Doesn't mean they haven't been and can't be adapted - like MANY MANY MANY other breeds.
that is why we have lure coursing, there are plenty of places to hunt, the owners just aren't hunters. i know it's difficult for britons to understand, but the USA is HUGE w/ a HUGE variety of environments. the tall grass prairie & mesquite brush environment in KS, NE, TX & OK is nearly identical to the dry african savannahs.
also almost no breed was ever used & developed exclusively for hunting one species or even one type of species. the RR was used in africa on game that is functionally identical to what it is or has been hunted on here: leopard/mt lion, caracal/bobcat, warthog/feral hog, antelope/deer etc. of the species specific breeds, putting them on another species does not mean changing or adapting how they hunt. for example putting otterhounds on mink did not make them change how they worked a track. and a RR runs a boar/warthog track the same way it runs a lion track.
there are only so many ways a scent trailing dog works
drift the track or straddle the track
head up or head down
open or silent
measured pace or dead run
taking a dog from one environment to another does not change how it works. it can change their effectiveness temporarily, but that is only temporary.
It sounds like RRs are really versatile dogs. I've been wanting something I can dabble around in sports with, but not necessarily in it to win. Just have fun with and get used to everything for now. A nice starter dog that will make a fantastic companion, too.
And everything Ouesi said...well, I have Zander. LOL He already knows how to open doors and such, so problem solving doesn't bother me too much. I actually much prefer intelligent dogs.
I will go to a breeder that works their dogs, though. That is just how I am with all working breeds because ability to work and temperament is far more important to me than looking like they can do the work. Now, if they do both, great. But so far, I've seen a few breeders keep the lines completely separate, which is interesting.
I'll look more into the breeder you suggested Pops, although he is waaaay far from me.
And everything Ouesi said...well, I have Zander. LOL He already knows how to open doors and such, so problem solving doesn't bother me too much. I actually much prefer intelligent dogs.
I will go to a breeder that works their dogs, though. That is just how I am with all working breeds because ability to work and temperament is far more important to me than looking like they can do the work. Now, if they do both, great. But so far, I've seen a few breeders keep the lines completely separate, which is interesting.
I'll look more into the breeder you suggested Pops, although he is waaaay far from me.