Training is Oddly Stressful

pinkspore

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#21
How does he respond outside of any training to praise and attention? For example, if you are sitting on the couch and he's in the room, if you make eye contact, smile and quietly tell him he's the best dog ever?

How does he interact with other people if you aren't present?

Just trying to get more ideas to think outside the box.
He's an infinite love sponge and melts into a puddle of goo and snuggles. Everyone who meets him falls in love with him. This is why he is still alive with three bites on his record. He's the same way with everyone else whether I am present or not. Making eye contact with him from the couch usually results in him coming over and leaning on me and trying to ooze onto my lap while shoving his head under my hands. Talking to him is practically an invitation to nose/ooze.

Thank you for the feedback! He is really, really weird.


You don't need another person. Just set the camera on the floor or a book or furniture and turn it on. Use the backyard if your house is too small.
You know how the camera needs to be a certain distance from the subject in order for the subject to fit into the frame? That distance exceeds the size of my kitchen. I might be able to make enough space in my living room if I slide all the furniture against the walls, but knowing Ullie that would probably make the living room scary, and it's not something I could do on a regular basis for training time. I don't have a back yard. I do have a front yard, it is very small, surrounded by a 4' chain link fence, and on a street that sees a lot of foot and vehicle traffic. Ullie is a lot more stressed in the yard than he is in the kitchen.

You're making this way too hard and making it too much like "training." If he approaches the training stick and interacts with it, throw a cookie on the floor by the stick and THAT IS IT. He doesn't need to continue interacting with it after that. Put it away. Exercise finished.
He won't usually eat cookies off the floor, the scatter game has helped a bit but generally once it has left my hand he ignores it. I guess I can just shoot for one interaction with the training stick per session, but his avoidance of it generally lasts through more than one session. It's really, really weird. I'm having the same issue trying to get him to touch a yogurt lid on the floor. He sniffs it, I feed him a cookie right on top of it, he cannot be enticed to approach it again for hours/days.

So don't. That's not how training works anyway. You don't say a cue while a dog is doing a behavior, you say it before the behavior. That's why it's a "cue." And if everything you say is true, that you talk to him all the time and he's totally fine with that happening while he offers behaviors until you say it WHILE he does the behavior - you should have no problems.
That's what I am attempting. Saying touch right before he does the nose touch results in him aborting the offer and pointedly not looking at my hand.

The bolded is what's stressful.
I'm sorry if I sound contrary, but why is eating food stressful? It's the only way he would even eat when fresh out of the shelter. He won't eat kibble when tossed on the floor, and even hotdogs are hit and miss unless I hand feed them. He won't usually eat from a bowl unless I am in the room with him. He chooses to spend a whole lot of his spare time staring at me. It's only when I add a clicker or any sort of expectations that I see the weird displacement behaviors.


I'm confused. Which is it? Is moving scary - and agility jumps are scary like you previously said - or will he happily chase the ball over the jump?
Ulysses will not eat treats if either he or I are moving. We both have to be standing still and he has to be looking at me for him to eat the treat, otherwise he either ignores it or takes it and then spits it out. He will not be lured over an agility jump, he will not take treats if any of our activities involve the agility jump. Ullie will sometimes chase a ball for a couple of throws. Sometimes, if I throw the ball right over the jump, he will bounce over it.

If he plays with TOYS happily and the problem is when you try to stuff food in his face, you're looking at a potential solution right there.
[/QUOTE]
He will only chase the ball for a few throws, after which he ignores it. He will ignore the ball if there is anyone on the street, if the other dogs are making noise in the house, if I praise him too enthusiastically for getting the ball, or if it makes a sound when it hits the ground. He is less reliably interested in the ball than he is in food.
 

Oko

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#22
Honestly, to me he sounds incredibly stressed out, not just in training, if being in the yard and noise and whatnot shut him down. Have you thought about medicating him?
 

pinkspore

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#23
If he won't take treats when you are offering them to him in a 'formal' training situation, there are two things that I know worked for me (granted, Penn wasn't nearly as stressed as your dog seems?)-

1. Offered her the reward by tossing it away from me to relieve the pressure of having to come into me for it (if it's a toy& he won't return it, attach a string!)

2. Start giving rewards randomly when you are just chillin' on the couch or chatting to him
Thanks for chiming in! I actually have the opposite problem, Ullie won't eat treats off the floor most of the time. He is much more likely to take a treat from my hand, even if he sees me drop it he won't look for it. Random rewards are good, I'm just having a bizarrely difficult time pairing them with any sort of reward marker.
 

pinkspore

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#24
Honestly, to me he sounds incredibly stressed out, not just in training, if being in the yard and noise and whatnot shut him down. Have you thought about medicating him?
The vet would like to give him some more time to adjust before medicating him. He's just not that obviously stressed, even a few experienced dog people have mistaken him for relaxed and happy when he's too stressed to take treats. He was in the shelter for a month, we sprung him in May and he has since been in a total of five different homes before coming back to stay here for the time being. He has also biten three people including myself, and we were very seriously considering putting him down for a while. He's had a lo to be stressed about, we're waiting to see what happens when he has some stability.

I did just start medicating Brisbane. After nine years of training/therapy/management, the world is still filled with reminders that my dog is worse than everyone else's dogs.
 

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#25
This is just a shot in the dark, but does he like peanut butter? Or some other spreadable substance? Coat a wooden spoon in it and lure him around with that. Obviously start really slow and don't require him to move or do anything early on. Being able to lick it, its fragrance and visibility may help get him over the initial hump.

When I'm working with a dog and wanting a target behaviour I will hide the target (normally my hand) behind my back and only present it when I'm expecting a target. If the dog doesn't orient/interact I will remove the target and try again, or approach the training session differently. I absolutely do not leave my target just hanging out around the dog if they're not engaging with it. To do so removes the value of the target, and in Ul's case I could see it stressing him out.

Lastly, I'm wondering what kind of pressure you might be placing on him by waiting for him to do something during a session. I've been given the impression that you may be working him (or trying to work him) for too long. To quote you from earlier in the thread:

Free shaping is also not going according to plan, he sat there and stared at me fixedly for the next 5 minutes before laying down. Upon receiving treats and praise and petting for this behavior, he sat back up and stared at me without moving for the next 15 minutes.
5 minutes, 15 minutes... To sit there with him for that long sounds boring and I could imagine stressful. Be mindful of duration.
 

Beanie

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#26
That's what I am attempting. Saying touch right before he does the nose touch results in him aborting the offer and pointedly not looking at my hand.
So what if you say "nose" right before he does the nose touch? What if you say "good" right before he does the nose touch? What if you say "purple" right before he does the nose touch? Something isn't adding up here because you say he's totally fine with you talking while training, except he's not. Is it possible the word "touch" has been poisoned and it's not you saying something - it's the word itself?

I'm sorry if I sound contrary, but why is eating food stressful? It's the only way he would even eat when fresh out of the shelter. He won't eat kibble when tossed on the floor, and even hotdogs are hit and miss unless I hand feed them. He won't usually eat from a bowl unless I am in the room with him. He chooses to spend a whole lot of his spare time staring at me. It's only when I add a clicker or any sort of expectations that I see the weird displacement behaviors.
It's not the eating itself that is stressful. It's you feeding him in the context of "this is training." I think you might want to re-read mrose's post about learning being stressful. The thing is that no matter how much control we think we can have over our body language and tone, we change when we're playing versus training. We change when we're feeding casually versus "this is training." It's exactly what you say, when you add expectations, that is when it becomes stressful for him because you are changing in ways you cannot control. Does that make sense? That's what I mean when I say you're thinking about things too hard and still thinking about stuff as "this is training." Let him interact with things in his environment and get rewarded for it as a surprise, but then let that be it.


Ulysses will not eat treats if either he or I are moving. We both have to be standing still and he has to be looking at me for him to eat the treat, otherwise he either ignores it or takes it and then spits it out.
Is this the case for hot dog, chicken, liver, raw steak, cheese, peanut butter? Or just treats and kibble?

He will not be lured over an agility jump, he will not take treats if any of our activities involve the agility jump. Ullie will sometimes chase a ball for a couple of throws. Sometimes, if I throw the ball right over the jump, he will bounce over it.

He will only chase the ball for a few throws, after which he ignores it. He will ignore the ball if there is anyone on the street, if the other dogs are making noise in the house, if I praise him too enthusiastically for getting the ball, or if it makes a sound when it hits the ground. He is less reliably interested in the ball than he is in food.
Okay, I think you are still onto something with the ball rather than treats. A few reps is all you should be looking for right now anyway. How is he with other toys? Will he tug? Is he interested in squeaking sounds - how about different ones, like those grunting squeakers and things like that?
Right now I would be very very careful with this though and not automatically switch to training and using the toy as a reward. I actually think it would be beneficial to not do any actual "training" with the dog for at least a week. Just let him be, let him acclimate to the house, let him explore stuff on his own, and don't put any pressure on him to learn "something." The truth is that every interaction we have with our dogs they are learning something. Don't approach life with him right now as teaching him a "something" through training. Teach him through living and see where that gets you.
 

pinkspore

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#27
This is just a shot in the dark, but does he like peanut butter? Or some other spreadable substance? Coat a wooden spoon in it and lure him around with that. Obviously start really slow and don't require him to move or do anything early on. Being able to lick it, its fragrance and visibility may help get him over the initial hump.

When I'm working with a dog and wanting a target behaviour I will hide the target (normally my hand) behind my back and only present it when I'm expecting a target. If the dog doesn't orient/interact I will remove the target and try again, or approach the training session differently. I absolutely do not leave my target just hanging out around the dog if they're not engaging with it. To do so removes the value of the target, and in Ul's case I could see it stressing him out.

Lastly, I'm wondering what kind of pressure you might be placing on him by waiting for him to do something during a session. I've been given the impression that you may be working him (or trying to work him) for too long. To quote you from earlier in the thread:



5 minutes, 15 minutes... To sit there with him for that long sounds boring and I could imagine stressful. Be mindful of duration.
He's interested in peanut butter so it's worth a shot. I don't leave the training stick hanging around to stress him out, I present it, he sniffs it and gets a treat, it goes away. The next time it comes out he pointedly avoids it.

I don't normally do 5-15 minute training sessions with him either, that was something I tried once ever. Several people suggested free shaping as a way to help him build confidence and relax, others said free shaping was stressful and should be avoided. Either way, I did it wrong and won't be doing that again. Normally we only do a couple of minutes of training because that is all he can handle before he disconnects.



So what if you say "nose" right before he does the nose touch? What if you say "good" right before he does the nose touch? What if you say "purple" right before he does the nose touch? Something isn't adding up here because you say he's totally fine with you talking while training, except he's not. Is it possible the word "touch" has been poisoned and it's not you saying something - it's the word itself?

Is this the case for hot dog, chicken, liver, raw steak, cheese, peanut butter? Or just treats and kibble?
I haven't tried any other words yet, I'm still working on building the nose touch behavior back up after killing it again. He seems to be ok with good, but hasn't associated it with food as far as I can tell. I guess it's possible the word "touch" is scary, but I haven't a clue why as he doesn't appear to have been trained to do anything ever before.

He will not take hot dogs, freeze dried liver, or cheese while either of us are moving. I haven't tried raw steak or peanut butter, and I don't train with chicken because Brisbane is allergic and food obsessed and I doubt I can keep every single molecule of it off the floor. What is a good delivery system for using peanut butter as a training treat?



Okay, I think you are still onto something with the ball rather than treats. A few reps is all you should be looking for right now anyway. How is he with other toys? Will he tug? Is he interested in squeaking sounds - how about different ones, like those grunting squeakers and things like that?
Right now I would be very very careful with this though and not automatically switch to training and using the toy as a reward. I actually think it would be beneficial to not do any actual "training" with the dog for at least a week. Just let him be, let him acclimate to the house, let him explore stuff on his own, and don't put any pressure on him to learn "something." The truth is that every interaction we have with our dogs they are learning something. Don't approach life with him right now as teaching him a "something" through training. Teach him through living and see where that gets you.
He will sometimes fetch stuffies, and gnawed a nylabone once. He will take any toy I hand him, though he usually drops it immediately. No tugging, if I touch or move the toy while it's in his mouth he drops it. Toys that make noise are scary, if the toy makes a sound while he is carrying it he will drop it and avoid it. Making things happen at all seems to be scary.

For most of Ullie's time here, he has been allowed to just learn by osmosis. However, he spends at least half his time crated because he fights with Brisbane. All of the management strategies that don't consist of total separation involve both dogs knowing at least one or two consistant commands. Since the ultimate goal is to eventually place Ullie in an adoptive home, it would also be useful for him to know some actual commands beforehand. So yes, I do need to actually teach him things. It's important because Ullie does not have any other foster options, and if we hit the point where I can no longer manage both dogs I will have to euthanize him. His life literally depends on him being trainable.
 

BostonBanker

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#28
He's definitely an interesting puzzle.

Five homes in 3 months is a TON of change, as I know you know. Do you know why he's been returned each time? Do you know the story behind his other bites - how they occurred and how people reacted to them? I saw in your other post that the bite with you occurred while breaking up a fight. Did you have him initially before he went out to any homes? Is he with a rescue group, or did he get pulled by an individual?

Peanut butter delivery:
http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1355&ParentCat=303

You don't need to order them; check local camping stores for something similar. I've used baby food and cat food (stinky fishy!) in them. I've also used cans of Cheez Whiz for treats, but that can backfire as once in a while they make a big sound. I think the softer and smellier a treat you can find, the better for most dogs. Those little squeeze packets of cream cheese you get with a bagel at the gas station are also good. And the little plastic cups of peanut butter (I always snag some from the hotel breakfast bar when I'm staying somewhere), and those don't even need to be kept cool. You can just keep them all over.

I know you obviously aren't comfortable posting video; I do wish we could see him in action in any situation - it does make things a lot easier to understand! But it took me a few years here before I would post video, so I understand the hesitation. Just take my word that nobody is judging you, your house, or skills (or clothes or anything, half the people posting videos here are in pajamas!), and keep it at the back of your mind. I live in a really tiny place as well, and sometimes have to get creative to find enough room to train/tape.

Several people suggested free shaping as a way to help him build confidence and relax, others said free shaping was stressful and should be avoided.
I think the distinction someone pointed out early is important - free shaping vs shaping. Free shaping means 100% going with what the dog offers. If he's staring at you, you wait for *anything*. An ear flick. A shift of weight. A glance to the side. Have you tried that? That may be where I'd start at this point. If you call him to you, he comes over and stares and gives you love eyes - wait for ANY behavior. The ones mentioned above. Tail movement. A head drop even a quarter inch. ANY movement of any body part, no clicker, just quietly tell him he's a genius, give him some of the best, stinkiest food you have available, and that's it. Do it again a half hour or an hour later, and again accept whatever the first movement is, regardless if it is the same or a different one. You can't shape with a dog who won't offer you anything, and a lot of dogs who are worried (or have been trained with punishment, or just plain been punished) are so concerned about getting the wrong answer that they just won't try to answer at all. You need to teach him that just raising his hand to try is a great thing. I'd even look for anything you could reward outside of those moments where you plan for it. If he picks up a toy (and as you said, he won't play with the toy with you), just a quiet "What a good boy!" and stinky yummy treat. If he walks over to sniff the agility jump, or table. If he is laying down and rubs his eye with his paw. See how many behaviors you can reward in a day. Anything that isn't causing an issue with the other dog, or staring vacantly at you, I'd be trying to reward.
 

pinkspore

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#29
Ulysses was picked up as an intact stray in Orange County in April. He was labelled "aggressive, rescue pull only" with no other details, and sat in a kennel for a month. Someone from an area rescue evaluated him, couldn't elicit any aggressive or concerning behavior, and started looking for a foster home for him. He was red-listed. Two hours before he was scheduled to be euthanized, I told a friend in my rescue network that I was finally over losing my hospice dog and ready for a new foster. The friend pulled him from the shelter, kept him for a couple of days while he went mad over her girl in heat, and then brought him to me.

Over the next two weeks, the rescue got over a dozen applications for Ullie. He was polite with my cats, oblivious to Brisbane posturing about his recently-removed testicals, and happy to see everyone. With someone from the rescue, we made three different home visits and approved a family with another heeler, an eight year old, and a one year old. The adoptive family was several hours away from me, so Ullie stayed with the home visit friend for a week until they were ready to welcome him home. The home visit friend has an elderly female McNab that lived peacefully with Ullie for that week.

Two days after the first adoptive family took him home, they let their baby crawl on him and pull a ball out of his mouth. He bit the baby in the face, left a small bruise and didn't break the skin. We offered to take him back immediately, they declined and signed him up for their Banfield health plan. We sent them to the Dogs and Babies blog and recommended they not allow the baby and Ullie to be on the floor together without a baby gate, xpen, crate, or other barrier between them.

A few weeks later, the first adoptive family returned Ullie because he bit his new foster dad. The story we were told is that the baby was crawling near Ullie, so the dad picked up the baby and pushed Ullie out of the way, and that Ullie turned around and bit his arm. He had a puncture wound and a slice that that required stitches to close, probably from Ullie's broken and incredibly sharp but non-painful lower canines. I retrieved Ullie and attempted to figure out what triggered him to bite. I pushed him, rolled him over, shouted at him, pretended to hit him, took food and toys from him, and forced him to sit on the furniture. Every potential trigger was followed by petting and love, and nothing got me anything but puppy eyes and the occasional hopeful lick. We guessed that Ullie was afraid of men, though having weird friends come over and do weird things also failed to trigger any kind of aggressive reaction.

A few weeks after that, Ullie and I visited a very kind woman who lives much closer to me and had been working with the rescue for over a year looking for the right dog. She and her daughter have an older retriever mix who got along nicely with Ullie, and they decided they wanted to adopt him. Four days later they returned him. While they mentioned that he had fought with their dog, the reason they returned him was because he had begun barking at other dogs on the bike path that they walked several times a day. I took him back immediately and decided to keep him for a while, and resolved to find a more dog-savvy home for him.

Four days after I brought him home again, Ulysses and Brisbane got in a fight in the yard. I got between them and Brisbane wasn't ready to quit, so I grabbed him and started walking away. Ullie ran up and bit my arm, causing a deep puncture. Since then I've identified the trigger for that bite as my grabbing Brisbane, and I'm sure Ullie was gunning for Briz and not me. He's still as soft and lovey and angelic as ever, which is why he's still alive.
 
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#30
Given that history, I'm not sure I would be doing any formal training right now. I'd personally probably just let him settle in and incorporate manners/house rules into a stable day to day routine, and be trustworthy.
 

pinkspore

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We've got that part down, and of course every time we leave the house we find someone who wants to adopt Ullie. This dog oozes charisma, I wish every dog in rescue was this irresistible.

Ullie gets walked by himself, of course. He is nervous about passing people on the sidewalk/trail. He also has naturally nice leash manners and when I stop moving he defaults to staring at me unless there is something worrying him. If he's relaxed enough he'll take a hotdog. Seeing another person usually involves him staring at them for a while and then turning to me. I offer a treat, if he eats it we keep going, if he doesn't he goes back to staring and I go back to waiting. Staring at stuff seems to be his way of processing the new and scary, getting him onto the beach took several trips just to stand there at the edge of the sand and watch the ocean. I'm fortunate that he's pretty easy to gauge, if he isn't eating or moving he's over threshold.

Other dogs are another matter entirely. He has been extremely polite about meeting off leash dogs while on leash. We made a couple of visits to the off leash dog beach with him on a long line, and he mostly trots around greeting and marking and charming people while we walk. A couple of times he spotted a very bouncy dog and dashed over to bite them hard enough to make them yelp. I apologized profusely for both incidents, both owners seemed confused why I was apologizing for my dog's bad behavior, we left anyway. This appears to be the same behavior I see when Brisbane is barking and I grab him and then Ullie rushes over and bites him. Ullie also gets unusually barky and bouncy about other leashed dogs sometimes, this is the only time I see that side of him, normally I can't get him to move above a trot.
 

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#32
I'd be really interested to see some videos of him at home and out and about.

I think Beanie asked, and maybe I missed the response... will he play tug?
 

pinkspore

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No tugging, he'll take whatever I hand him but surrenders it immediately. I'm not crazy about the idea of getting a dog with questionable bite inhibition and no out/leave it excited about grabbing something in my hand, so I haven't been trying to teach him.
 

pinkspore

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As of today we have had no dog fights for one week. Ulysses continues to receive a very high rate of pets, praise, and snuggles for such accomplishments as existing at the same time as Brisbane, watching the cats roll around on the floor and knock things off the counter, and not eating the chihuahua. (Life with Brisbane has conditioned me to praise the dogs any time they forgoe an opportunity for chaos.)

Last night I got out the puzzle toys. A new one for Brisbane, wood with sliding pieces covering several caches. Briz sniffs, pokes, lifts, nudges, kicks the whole thing across the room, and eventually finds all the kibble. Ulysses gets the Star Spinner, a puzzle game criticized for being only slightly more difficult to solve than a food bowl. He watches me put the kibble inside a spin it closed, sniffs it, and then startles when it moves. Tries to eat the kibble and then accidentally closes it. I was wondering who exactly this super=easy puzzle was for...now I know...

Ullie was excited to see the bait bag today, so he got to do some sits and nose touches for hot dog bits. We might finally have a voice command for nose touches, or at least he isn't refusing to participate when I say "touch", which is definitely progress. I still have no idea if he has figured out that the clicker means good yet. He has perked up a lot in the last day or two, and he's rapidly getting more coordinated. He no longer spins out on the hard floors.
 

pinkspore

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Woot! Today we have a target stick touch, offered behaviors, and lots of ridiculous nub-wagging. He only knows sit and touch, and today he was poking my hand furiously with his nose as I tried to lure him down. We've been working on down for a while, but it's tough to get the timing down since luring usually results in him scooting around on his bum frantically offering sit, and then collapsing on my arm and rolling onto his back. When he's less enthusiastic he seems to sort of know what I'm asking.

Ulysses has also mastered the art of emptying the ball-with-a-large-hole toy, which is a major accomplishment. He is slowly becoming acquainted with the idea that he can make things happen via poking and pawing. He is still unnerved by random unfamiliar things, though. Today I did laundry, and a cat was sitting in the empty laundry hamper, and this broke poor Ullie's brain. He kept staring in horror and then desperately begging me to fix this world gone mad. It's hard to imagine what sort of deprived life he led where a cat in a container is an utterly foreign sight.
 

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