Limited VS. Full Registration for Pet Pups?

Dekka

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#21
They do if you only let the pup on unlimited registration go on a co-ownership. ;)

One breeder who's dogs I am seriously looking into does this. It's pretty awesome, because she puts in the contract that as co-owner she has to approve any breedings, has a list of required health tests that must be passed for both sire and dam before a breeding, and the mate being picked for the breeding must be approved by her. If the contract is violated, she has the right to regain full ownership. So, if someone did take one of her dogs and try to breed it willy nilly she could technically go and pick it up as it would become hers. Also, I think as the co-owner she has to sign off on papers for any litters.

I don't know if someone can dual register a co-owned dog with another registry as being owned by one person, without the co-owners signature either.

It seems like a pretty good system to me also, because nobody knows a breeder's lines better than they do, and so if you are planning to breed one of their dogs then they are the best person to go to for opinions when looking for a suitable match.
Co ownership can work. But it backfires too. I personally wouldn't co own a dog unless I knew the breeder very very very well. Many of the people I would want to sell too (dog sport type people) tend to be very leery of co owning dogs. I hear to many horror stories.
 
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#22
No, just that any litters are not registrable.

With so many mixes, and "alternative" registries, I wonder how long even this is going to be able to dissuade breeding. If people don't care if their Labradoodle is registered, will they continue caring if their Labrador is?
 

bubbatd

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#23
I was looking at a line I wanted to breed Bubba to , They would only sell with a spay clause or co- ownership . I throughly understood their position and appreciated it . I declined and that was the end of my line .
 

Romy

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#24
Co ownership can work. But it backfires too. I personally wouldn't co own a dog unless I knew the breeder very very very well. Many of the people I would want to sell too (dog sport type people) tend to be very leery of co owning dogs. I hear to many horror stories.
It's definitely something where you would want all the details laid out beforehand on paper. For instance, I would never want to co-own a dog where the breeder required a litter, or had the power to go ahead with breeding it if I disagreed with that decision, wasn't in a position to finance a whelping, etc.

My next borzoi will hopefully be on a co-ownership, and I say hopefully because we have a litter and a very good breeder picked out. Right now it depends on who/what are actually successfully whelped at the end of the day. It definitely helps to check with other people who co-own dogs with a breeder you're looking at, to see if they have ever had problems. She's a great lady, very laid back with the attitude of "you guys are the ones living with this animal, so you get to make the decisions of gender/neuter or not/what kinds of competitive events you get involved in/etc," and she is there to mentor us.
 
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#25
In AKC, does Limited Registration mean they must be s/n by a certain age?

No, limited registration is just a way to prevent litters being registered with AKC ... so if the dog was bred behind the breeder's back, they could still use another registry, even UKC does not recognize limited reg & will override it. Personally speaking, my pups are also sold on a spay/neuter contract which is meant to prevent breeding of pet quality pups. It's very effective, especially since I negate my health guarantee if the pup is not altered in the specified time period.

Thanks for all the suggestions, this is definitely something to think about - I am not taking it lightly. That was an excellent point that it definitely would make it easier for someone unscrupulous to go behind my back if sold on full registration. Have not thought about it that way but makes perfect sense :)
 

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#26
"Has anyone gone from pet owner to being a show person.....with any success or otherwise?"
I have somewhat recently (in the past 3 years). I went from pet owner with my previous dal to showing with my current dal Ivan. I think it was a success, we achived his Championship and I am now hooked.
 

Gypsydals

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#27
"I don't know if someone can dual register a co-owned dog with another registry as being owned by one person, without the co-owners signature either."
Romy, I'm sure someone could lie. But I recently got a flyer in the mail from UKC and a registration form with it. On it there was a question about whos name(S) where on their papers and if the co-owner(s) on the registration papers were needed IF the dog was sold or bred. If you marked yes you needed the Co-owners signature also. So IF I read it right you would need a co-owners signature to register atleast with UKC.
 

SizzleDog

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#28
So IF I read it right you would need a co-owners signature to register atleast with UKC.
Ronin is dual registered with UKC, and we didn't need his co-owner's signature. :)
 

MafiaPrincess

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#29
While the AKC/CanKC isn't the be all and end all for many breeds.. many people consider it decently important. While it is no more than a registering body, it is one of a list of many things even uniformed people often are looking for in a puppy.

If I was breeding dogs (that were primarily AKC/CanKC rather than breeds they don't recognize like JRTs) I wouldn't want the possibility of someone sullying my kennel name by taking a dog that should have been altered as it was sold as a pet and breeding it and registering the litter.

When it comes down to it, one has to be pretty ingenious and often work with a lawyer to come up with contracts that are truly enforceable. And not everything one wants to make enforceable often is. I've seen a lot of contracts that stipulate if you don't do 'X' I will repossess the dog. Whether that is not alter it.. breed it.. abuse it.. etc, many of those things aren't enforceable by removal of the animal. Monetary penalties often are one of the only enforceable options. Make the penalty big enough and hopefully people won't dare to try you on it.

There is no perfect solution. It's talked about often on showdogs-L. Disputes over withholding paperwork till the dog is altered to make absolutely sure that it happens. People lying to the AKC, AKC stepping in and giving up the paperwork as the contract wasn't written in a way that was enforceable enough..

Sadly it can be a mess.. Personally, I would want to do as much as I could to protect my dogs and my kennel name. And that would involve in part not giving out full registration to pet quality dogs.
 

Gypsydals

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#30
Ronin is dual registered with UKC, and we didn't need his co-owner's signature. :)
There is a question on the registration form that I got and thats why I thought both were needed. It asks "Are both registrants signatures required if this dog is sold or or when registering a litter of puppies." With yes or no boxes to check. Then it says signature(s) of registrant(s) sign here.
Thats how I got both co-owners where needed. If I was wrong(which I was) and gave the wrong info I'm sorry. I didn't mean to pass on wrong info.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#31
I sell on limited. I wouldn't do otherwise. If a puppy turns out well and the people want to show it and do all the health testing we can talk and PERHAPS the reg can be changed over. You can ALWAYS change it over...but you cannot change a full, to limited. Why wouldn't you use the tools given along with the many other options to prevent unwanted outcomes.
 
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#32
Ok, that is true about changing limited over to full ... I guess my main fear was someone who slipped through the cracks and bred a dog would just use another registry to breed the litters. So I would rather have them go with AKC and be able to keep track of any progeny. OTOH, what I probably need to be doing is tightening up my contract & interview process even more ... All good points brought up here, thanks :)

I think I will go with limited for the pet pups but make the screening process even more thorough. It might almost be too much temptation to breed if a pet pup was sold on full registration, maybe?
 

Beanie

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#33
You might be able to keep track of them if they were registered through the AKC, but then you still have those pups associated with your kennel name/line... and I personally wouldn't want that. It's protecting you and your line as much as it's an attempt to protect the dogs themselves from an ill-planned or "but I want a puppy from him, he's SO CUTE!" breeding, too.

And yeah, too much of a temptation is one way to put it, but I also think if you sold the dogs on a full registration it's almost like giving your blessing for them to go ahead and breed anyway... like a stupid/shady person who was intent on breeding anyway could easily use that as an excuse. "Well, if you didn't want me to breed her, why did you sell her to me on a full registration??" sort of thing.
Limited registration is just one more step of doing everything you can to prevent a breeding... and I say that meaning there's really very little you actually can do to prevent it when somebody is bound and determined to take their dog and breed him/her. Thorough screening is definitely key, but even well-screened people can surprise you... =<
 

HoundedByHounds

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#34
The only 100% way to ensure no breedings occur is to s/n before they leave your home, at 8-12weeks. that is drastic BUT I do know people who do that. They can always sleep at night knowing...without a shadow of doubt that NOTHING they place as a pet will end up being bred. I envy that peace...I reaaaaally do. I am not ready to go that far yet....but being that the hounds are a small compact breed without the growth issues of a larger one...that option sounds better all the time. esp with dog puppies where incontinence isn't a major concern the way it is in bitches.
 
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#35
My Aussie has a limited AKC registration. The breeder has seller's remorse and feels that I SHOULD show my dog; although I did state to her clearly that I wanted a companion dog and honestly, she ought to be happy that this Aussie has a good loving home. I have a kid in college and a bad back and arthritis and I dont need the extra expenses incurred with showing an Aussie. I'm not as young and free as I used to be. Anyway, she brought out a couple of pups that we had to choose from; from a litter of seven, of which two were spoken for. We picked the pup we felt suited our home, came back, paid the fee and she started nudging me about showing the dog. I told her, well, maybe, I'd have to see. I have my hands full with an Aussie pup that I dearly love but dog showing isn't something that I can or want to do right now. When I last spoke to her, she said I got "the pick of the litter" and it was her husband who wanted the dog they had and she wished that she had kept the dog she sold to us.

I don't plan on contacting her again with any questions about the pup, if I can help it!
 
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#36
And yeah, too much of a temptation is one way to put it, but I also think if you sold the dogs on a full registration it's almost like giving your blessing for them to go ahead and breed anyway... like a stupid/shady person who was intent on breeding anyway could easily use that as an excuse. "Well, if you didn't want me to breed her, why did you sell her to me on a full registration??" sort of thing.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way but you're right. It could be viewed as me making it easier for them to breed but also does reflect badly that I gave the full registration in the first place ...


Thorough screening is definitely key, but even well-screened people can surprise you...

Tell me about it :mad: Sometimes it seems like the ones who are asking all the right questions and screening me as much as I am them, are the ones who I end up never hearing back from. OR the ones that pull the most crap. You think you're doing all you can, even asking that they PLEASE keep you updated on the pup for your records just ONCE ... then they fall off the face of the earth. Have definitely lost sleep over those pups ... you're just always wondering. :::sigh::: I like the idea of speutering the pups before they leave - I am on the fence about early s/n so might like to try it once just to see how those pups turned out, but can't even find a Vet here that is willing to do it. The Vets here STINK. I have to leave NYC just to get OFA testing done, they just refuse to do it. Ah, but that's another issue entirely! Thanks again for all the great responses!
 

Dekka

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#37
Are you going to have good access to these pups if you do a juvie s/n? Are you willing to track them down if needed for the next few years to see how the dogs develop?

I personally will never do a dog before its mature.. and will NEVER get a dog that was a juvie s/n. I know most sport people won't want a dog with the issues that can come from an early alter are you going to get the homes you want?

I too am a breeder and know how hard it is with selling pups, but to me the health and welfare of the dogs is my #1 priority.
 
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#38
My breeder did tell me to never neuter a dog before it was at least a year old! I agree with that, no matter what, the dog's health comes first and foremost.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#39
as much access as I have if they AREN'T lol...no difference. The contract is the same sans s/n neuter clause. The screening is the same too.

Whatever the objections may be...s/n prior to placement is still the ONLY 100% way to make sure your dogs are not bred or contributing to the overpopulation/rescue issue you may have in your breed. Good or bad...doesn't change that fact one iota. The rest looks good on a piece of paper and may or may not protect you, your dogs, and your line down the road should the worst happen.

I know that the one person who does it, in a large breed, hasn't had a single issue come up in a 8 wk s/n dog, that hasn't in a 6-12mo s/n dog. And most of her clients have been happy not to have to pay the $200+ it costs to s/n a large breed at the older ages/heavier weights.

I haven't decided it's a fabulous idea...but neither am I ready to chuck it based on research when I have actual real life counterpoints I can see firsthand.
 

Dekka

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#40
I have met a few oversized lanky dogs (one is an aussie.. so not a large breed) who were all juvie s/n. But not to say they didnt' have that tendancy to begin with. But we do know it affects the growth of many other animals (as far as I know its never really been studied in dogs) so its safe to assume there are changes with dogs too.

The OP I believe said they had issues getting pet owners to check back in, so that is why I asked would you be able to get them to check in enough to be able to make a call as to how much it makes a difference.

I just know that in my somewhat limited (but I think better than average) understanding of the roll of hormones in the body that I would not be comfortable with removing a few hormones from growing and developing pups.
 

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