Cropping Ears?

Hillside

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#21
Coop! You do have a Doberman, don't you? I kept thinking, who else has a Dobe?? D'oh. Coop! :rofl1:

/me raises hand

Coop and Toller already covered it very well.

I will just add that any dog that I have met that has cropped ears LOVES having them played with. That is my Doberman's FAVORITE thing ever. She will go for ear rubbins before a treat.
 

Laurelin

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#22
Oh and definitely you make sure you find a GOOD vet to do the crop too and make sure you can get some recommendations. I have seen so so so many bad crop jobs. They look terrible.
 

ACooper

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#23
Coop! You do have a Doberman, don't you? I kept thinking, who else has a Dobe?? D'oh. Coop! :rofl1:
LOL, It's MY fault........I haven't posted ANY picture evidence in quite some time :lol-sign:
 

MPP

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#24
A very informative and thought-provoking thread. I've always been opposed (though I love the look of cropped 'n docked Dobes), but now I realize that was a knee-jerk reaction. I thought it was MUCH worse on the puppies than it seems to be. I don't know if I'll change my mind, but at least there's information here to mull over.
 

Doberluv

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#25
I don't presently have a Doberman, but have in the past, as you can see in my avatar. I lost him to cancer a couple years ago.

Normally, the breeder gets the ears done and normally, an experienced breeder knows a vet who specializes in cropping. My breeder asked me if I wanted a show crop, a pet crop or a working crop. (I think it was called) I wanted a show crop. Anyhow, Lyric's ears turned out beautifully.

When he and his littermates were home after the procedure, my breeder told me if anything, they itched a little because the pups would lean into the cotton ball she used to clean them with...rather than moving away, as would be the case with pain. They wrestled and knocked into each other and were not fazed by any crashing into the ears, at least not to any marked extent. Within about 7 - 10 days, the sutures came out and the little bit of scabs came off. (remember, this is cartilage) The cleaning and posting is what is the hassle.....at first until you get pro at it.

Very soon, as long as I used treats and made into a pleasant enough procedure, Lyric would hold nice and still (learned the "hold-it" command, which doubled for other duties. lol) and soon he would sleep through the post-changing procedure...if he were lounging on the couch. (do this after the pup has had some exercise) It was just another bonding experience we had and a start to a very trusting relationship, where he trusted me to do all kinds of things that had to be done to him.

It is very important to keep them clean, change them every 4 days or so and do not leave them to air out for very long in between post changing. In fact, if you need it, I can find a link to a good, informative, instructional site for posting.

The one thing I changed after a very short time was the type of tape I used. That can be painful as it rips out the hair on the outside of the ear. So, I used paper tape and then vet wrap over it. BUT....it is exceedingly important to use caution with vet wrap and stretch the living daylights out of it first before using and be careful not to wrap too tightly....even undoing it half an hour later and re-doing it so it doesn't get too tight and cut off circulation. But it was so nice to hold the thing in without causing him any pain with the tape.

As for tail docking, that's not even an issue. Their nervous systems aren't even finished in that area at the early age that they do it...2 to 3 days old. No pain. Crying yes. But that is probably due to being taken from their mothers, not pain. Some breeders use banding rather than cutting, which I think is every bit as good, if not better. They don't even notice it. And Dobes have thin, whip-like tails without much fat or fur and let me tell you, they wag them furiously. So, prevention of injury this way is infinitely better than the risk of what can be serious injury later and amputation at an older age is vastly more traumatic and frequently problematic with re-opening of the wound, persistent infections etc.

So, there. You have one more opinion from someone experienced with cropping/docking in Dobermans.
 

SizzleDog

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#26
I prefer cropped ears on Dobermans. I've had three dobes of my own, all with cropped ears. I've cared for numerous more, they all had cropped ears too.

That said, I've also done my fair share of FIXING ears that have been messed up by the all-to-common combination of poor crop job + poor aftercare + novice owners.

IMO, if the breeder is giving your brother the option of natural ears (and your brother is in America or Canada), then your brother has far bigger things to worry about than ears. Most (think 99.999999%) responsible breeders in North America crop every puppy they bring into this world, before any of them go to their new homes. And if the breeder is the type that offers a choice... well, I vote for natural ears. Because chances you're not going to gt a crop like this:


Or this:


Or this:



.... you're most like to get something like this.


And there's a chance your brother will go through what that poor puppy (pictured above) owners went through. Bad crop, stupid vet, necrosis, a midnight trip to an anti-cropping emergency vet that actually made things WORSE, frantic posts to a Doberman forum, horrible guilt and mental anguish... and eventually a caring person in Iowa that helped save their wonderful puppy's ears. They're not perfect, they're not particularly attractive - but I saved the ears and got them standing. I wish I didn't have to help people with problems like this, but until people do the responsible thing and get their puppies from responsible breeders who have their puppies cropped by expert cropping vets.... it's still something I know I'll end up doing from time to time. :(
 

ACooper

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#27
Leaving out necrosis and/or other serious medical issues from poor after care, also which leaves scaring and/or ears not standing, not everyone thinks those long show crops are attractive to be fair and honest.

I personally don't, I prefer the look of a shorter crop...........NOT short, just not that extremely long. A nice medium length crop suits my tastes perfectly.

THAT is another reason you should request to see examples of the finished work for that breeder and the vet they use. The length and style should be considered according to your own tastes not necessarily that of the breeder IMO.
 

bubbatd

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#28
What today is considered a good crop ??? Some I personally feel are too high and pointed . Is there a standard show wise ? Coop , I like those ears !
 

Laurelin

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#29
What today is considered a good crop ??? Some I personally feel are too high and pointed . Is there a standard show wise ?
Depends on the breed and lines. Personally I like shorter crops generally. Some show crops are getting a touch too long for my taste. The only breed I'm really interested in that is cropped has an extremely short crop job that doesn't even require posting. I would likely keep it natural though.
 

Doberluv

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#31
Grammy, some are pointed and very straight along the edge and some, like Lyric had a graceful and slight curve on the edge. It is something to talk over with the breeder. And yes, most reputable breeders here get it taken care of, get the pups through the initial care and do not leave it up to the buyer.
 

SizzleDog

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#32
Leaving out necrosis and/or other serious medical issues from poor after care, also which leaves scaring and/or ears not standing, not everyone thinks those long show crops are attractive to be fair and honest.

I personally don't, I prefer the look of a shorter crop...........NOT short, just not that extremely long. A nice medium length crop suits my tastes perfectly.

THAT is another reason you should request to see examples of the finished work for that breeder and the vet they use. The length and style should be considered according to your own tastes not necessarily that of the breeder IMO.
In such an unhealthy breed, I hope puppy buyers put aside their ear crop length preferences when it comes to buying from responsible breeders. IMO if someone wants a very short crop, there are plenty of dogs with that ear length in rescue that need homes. :) You know just as well as I do that responsible breeders' mail goal is not to tailor their dogs to give pet puppy buyers exactly what they "ordered" - they're not going to crop some puppies in a litter differently based on a pet buyer who wants a short crop - what happens if that one puppy with a short crop ends up being the one that's too good for the breeder to sell as a pet?

What today is considered a good crop ??? Some I personally feel are too high and pointed . Is there a standard show wise ? Coop , I like those ears !
There is nothing in the breed standard other than basically saying they are "cropped in the normal fashion" - which means no "military" crops, no LGD crops, etc. A crop should always compliment the dog - it's all about balance in this breed - so a more elegant dobe should not have short, cobby ears... just like a nice male with lots of body and bone shouldn't have a crop that looks like it belongs on a bitch. He shouldn't have 2" tall ears with no shape though either. ;)

Depends on the breed and lines. Personally I like shorter crops generally. Some show crops are getting a touch too long for my taste. The only breed I'm really interested in that is cropped has an extremely short crop job that doesn't even require posting. I would likely keep it natural though.
I agree, some show crops are over the top - honestly, most Foxfire dobes have ears that are waaaaay too long for my tastes. Kaylee's crop is *almost* too long, but she's an extremely elegant bitch - her ears fit her well. She'd look unbalanced with shorter ears. Ronin and Rocket have shorter, wider ears - both slightly different, but they're BOYS - their crops fit their heads and bodies very well - that's the beauty of having a true expert crop ears. :)
 

SizzleDog

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#33
Also - it's not just aesthetics. Croppers who crop show (and some working) litters know are highly skilled - recovery times are faster, there is less blood and mess, the edges are cleaner and generally the puppies seem to be happier and recover more quickly.

Also - the obvious pet quality puppies in a litter are often given a wider and/or slightly shorter crop. Not a pet crop - a modified show crop. That way, if those puppies by some miracle DO end up being show quality, the ears are something the breeder can live with.


But if someone wants to go to the vet down the street because they don't like the len
 

mi_bella

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#34
Why is it so bad to give the new ownder the option? If all responsible breeders cropped them, what happens to the people who rather have natrual ears? Not arguing, just curious.

The one my brother is getting his from not only gave him the option but asked him if he wanted the show-length (realy long, as it was pictured here), medium, or short.
 

SizzleDog

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#35
PS - Ilsa had one of those modified show crops. She was also born with exceptionally short ears,... if her actual ears had been longer, her crop would have been longer.

They also could have been a lot straighter... but hey, she was my first dog. I didn't know what I was doing with her ears - I stopped having them posted before they were truly done. I'll not be making that mistake again.

 

SizzleDog

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#36
Why is it so bad to give the new ownder the option? If all responsible breeders cropped them, what happens to the people who rather have natrual ears? Not arguing, just curious.

The one my brother is getting his from not only gave him the option but asked him if he wanted the show-length (realy long, as it was pictured here), medium, or short.
Rescue, or importing a dog from a country where cropping is illegal. Or they find one of the very rare breeders in North America (and perhaps sacrifice in health or temperament) that will send home a puppy with natural ears. (And some of the breeders leaving ears natural are wonderful breeders, but their dogs really aren't right for the typical pet home... a true sport-bred dobe is not something I'd recommend for J.Q. Public!)

In North America, the Doberman is still a cropped breed - our standard makes no allowance for natural ears. Responsible breeders are breeding to the standard... which means their puppies are cropped. They're not breeding to produce pets for the public, their aim is to improve the breed. They're not a business, providing a product. Pet puppies are wonderful byproducts of the responsible breeder's greater goal. I know it's kind of an alien concept, so I understand if it's hard to grasp. :)

Also - side note on show length ears - some BYBs will say they provide the option of show length, but their idea of show length is even shorter than Ilsa's ears. I don't think so. ;)
 

mi_bella

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#37
In North America, the Doberman is still a cropped breed - our standard makes no allowance for natural ears. Responsible breeders are breeding to the standard... which means their puppies are cropped. They're not breeding to produce pets for the public, their aim is to improve the breed. They're not a business, providing a product. Pet puppies are wonderful byproducts of the responsible breeder's greater goal. I know it's kind of an alien concept, so I understand if it's hard to grasp. :)
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
 

MandyPug

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#38
I think it's a personal choice, alot of breeders do still crop and if you don't want a crop they won't sell to you. As long as it's done by an experienced vet i really see little harm in doing a crop, but you should make sure your brother follows posting instructions perfectly so everything stays safe and clean.

Just want to point out thought that the Doberman Club of Canada's website states in the standard posted on the site (http://www.dpcc.ca/dpcc-standard.htm):

Ears either cropped or uncropped. The upper attachment of the ear, when alert, should be on a level with the top of the skull. If cropped, the ears should be well trimmed and carried erect. If uncropped, they should be small and neat, and set high on the head.
So while it's still only cropped in the states, they do allow uncropped here (and i know were talking the states i just wanted to point out that it's not ALL of North America that doesn't allow natural ears). I don't know if they win or not, but if the dog doesn't win simply because of it's ears being natural that makes me a bit sad but it's not my breed so who am i to say.
 

SizzleDog

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#39
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
The Doberman would probably not be the best breed to get into, then. :)

There's actually a breeder here in the States that originally from Australia, and she agonized over cropping her litter's ears. Eventually she did end up cropping, because she knew she'd never be able to prove her dogs in our show rings without it. Also, if she didn't crop ears she'd have a difficult time being allowed to breed to most of the stud dogs in the country. So with natural ears, she would be severely limiting her breeding choices, and thus throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it came to breeding for health, temperament and other aspects of conformation.



I think it's a personal choice, alot of breeders do still crop and if you don't want a crop they won't sell to you. As long as it's done by an experienced vet i really see little harm in doing a crop, but you should make sure your brother follows posting instructions perfectly so everything stays safe and clean.

Just want to point out thought that the Doberman Club of Canada's website states in the standard posted on the site (http://www.dpcc.ca/dpcc-standard.htm):



So while it's still only cropped in the states, they do allow uncropped here (and i know were talking the states i just wanted to point out that it's not ALL of North America that doesn't allow natural ears). I don't know if they win or not, but if the dog doesn't win simply because of it's ears being natural that makes me a bit sad but it's not my breed so who am i to say.
LOL yes, I forgot that the DPCC changed their standard. The majority of breeders in Canada do still crop though - breeders in the Americas will fight tooth and nail to preserve their right to crop.

I think you have a great outlook on it though Mandy - you don't like cropping, so you don't own a cropped breed. I think if more people thought along the same lines, the dog world would be a much less dramatic place. :)

ETA: In Canada, a dog should not be penalized for having natural ears, since they're mentioned in the standard now. But I wouldn't be surprised if it still happens.
 

noodlerubyallie

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#40
Haha, it's taking me a while to understand, but I really do try.

So lets say I decided I want to be a breeder (hypothetical. It'll never be my thing.), and I'm really dedicated about improving the breed and all of those things which good breeders do but I don't believe in cropping dogs ears. Because, say, I believe all God's creatures should be left in His image and not altered. (Sorry for going to the extreme, just trying to understand lol) Would leaving my puppies with natrual ears and maybe going as far as requesting to whoever I sell my puppies to do the same (just like you ask for spay/neuter contract) make me a bad breeer?
It wouldn't necessarily make you a bad breeder, but it will make it harder for you to finish your dogs in the breed ring. (In America - I won't go into Europe.)

Also, good breeders breed to the breed standard...and you are, right off the bat, not breeding to the standard.

It can be confusing. I know it took me awhile to get to know the ins and outs.

I also agree with what Sizzle said - nearly every breeder that gives you a choice about cropping your dog's ears is most likely a breeder you shouldn't be supporting. A breeder should want every puppy to look it's best when it comes to cropping, and leaving a natural eared puppy to go home with an owner who has to find a vet to do it themselves can (and very often does) lead to a very messy experience - like poor Wrigley's.

This is a pretty heated debate around here - you've gotten off easy!
 

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