Red? Dumbell Advice!!!

For the past few weeks I've been working with Hades at home, going through the motions to introduce him to the dumbell. Yes, I said weeks... Now I know that all dogs are different, but I'm starting to get frusterated with him.

The very first day he moved throught he motions quite quickly. We had a little obstacle when I had moved the dumbell about a foot away from me, but after about 10 minutes he figured it out.

The step we're stuck at, is placing his mouth/chin on the bar of the dumbell. He just doesn't get it at all. With Roxy, she's in your face, got very excited and worked really hard to do what she had to, to get the treat. But Hades just thinks the game is over. He'll touch it like the criteria before, hang around for a bit, sometimes cry and wag his tail a bit, and then go lie down. He simply thinks the game is over. I'll try to entice him back without giving him a treat and encourage him to figure it out to no avail.

Any advice?

help him out, hold the dumbell in front of you and in front of him/her and entice the heck out of him to put his mouth around it, pratically put it in there if you have to, ( I use take it) and mark and reward. He'll get it, then you can work the hold times and hold command once take it is down pat.

Why put the chin on the dumbell? seems like a needless step to me. Unless i'm way off in what you're trying to accomplish, then feel free to correct me

With the method I used with Roxy, there were a bunch of what could be called needless steps that turned out to make her *love* the dumbell. I was hoping I could do the same with Hades.

I have to admit, I was so frusterated I did that once... and it ruined everything! (By helping him out and trying to coax him and force him to put his mouth around the dumbell) Sure I got the dumbell in his mouth, I did it a few times, but after that he wanted nothing to do with it. Back to the shying his head away from it, ears back, not happy at all.

IMO, with Hades, just the type of dog he is, the motivational method seems even *more* important. He shuts down quickly with any type of correction. Forcing him physically to do something makes him shut down even faster. He just wants to lie down, belly up and submit. Or just take off and hide underneath the desk. Which he tried to do when he thought I was done.

RCD, try this.

It helps if you have several DBs. Bait the bar of the DB with smears of peanut butter, cheez whiz, etc.

Forget anything else for now.

Twice a day put out the DBs, preferably with him in a crate watching you. Show him each one, and let him see how excited you are about them. Use your excited encouraging praise voice, and incorporate the command you will use to elicit the fetch behavior later. For example, I use the command "Take it", so I would be waving the DBs around, letting him barely sniff the lucious treat you are smearing on the bars, and be asking him, "WOW, look at that, are you gonna TAKE IT? MMMM that smells GOOD, you wanna TAKE IT??" all the time smiling and dancing around and skimming the DBs across the floor, etc.

Once you have at least 2 of them down on the floor, be ready with your clicker. You should have something else to reward him of even HIGHER value. This is the time for pan seared liver, steak, garlicky salty stuff, etc.

The SECOND he licks the first DB bar, click and treat treat treat. Let him go to each one, lick the treat, and then YOU click and treat treat treat.

I would do this until the dog is going NUTS when he sees you get out the dumb bell. I might even, at the end, snatch up the last one before he can get to it, and put it away right in front of him.

Then once he is really drivey when you are getting out the dumb bells, you can ignore the licking and wait for him to pick it up.

I might also suspect you are moving too fast towards putting the DB on the floor, and not spending enough time working on the take it from between your knees and hold it.

The dog should learn to put his mouth on it and HOLD IT from between your knees before you start floor work.

If you go back to holding it, place the treat in a manner in which he can NOT get it without putting his mouth over the DB bar. Sometimes it takes a little dodging and hiding it sort of under and behind the DB bar, or bait the bar with PB or CW.

My trainer had mentioned something similar with a spoon, using PB.

I've got two dumbells. So I'm putting something slimey and yummy on both of them??? Than interrupting him from licking the stuff off with more, high value treats?

Before every session I already "love" the dumbell. Stroking it, talking baby talk to it etc.

The steps we took, was the criteria when the dumbell was away from me was to just touch it. I brought the dumbell back to my lap when the criteria was to actually place his mouth on the bar.

This sounds a lot better though. Ignoring everything else and just amping him up.

Thanks a lot Red! Hopefully I'll be able to get back on and give an update in a week or so to give an update!

holding a dumbell in front of their face enticing them to grab it isn't really forceful or correctional in nature. Sure they may look a little worried at first, they don't understand what's going on, it's normal, not a bad thing. Get their teeth to touch it a couple times and mark and reward, watch their ears come up and intensity come from their eyes, there's no force or breaking of the dog. Watch their attitude when I grab the pvc or dumbell from the closet, they can't wait to get their mouths on it.

I've never had a dog that in 5 minutes wasn't "taking" the pvc pipe from between my knees, with energy and intensity Then only problem I've ever had is getting a calm grip because they anticipate the reward. That takes much longer.

I got up to exactly the same stage with my last dog before I started having problems. I put the dumbell away for a while and used my fingers. My dogs have been used to having ears, mouth etc. examined by me since pups so are very relaxed with it.

Armed with some extremely high reward treats and wearing a leather gardening glove put two fingers behind the canines with your thumb under his jaw. He may wiggle a bit initially, and tried to spit the fingers out with his tongue, but after a few seconds should settle. At this point mark and reward. Allow the dog to take his mouth off your hand (rather than the other way).

Start extending the time you leave your fingers in the mouth, and introduce the hold and drop commands. After just a few sessions you should have him grabbing for your fingers. Substitue your fingers for a piece of wood similar dimensions to the dumbell bit, and then the dumbell itself.

...Start to vary the position you hold the object ie. not straight in front of the dog, and from there picking the dumbell off the floor is easy.

BarkingMad, I did something similar with my most recent dog.

I first got her confortable with me having my hands in her mouth, me opening her mouth, etc. Once she'd let me do what I wanted with her mouth without squirming or feeling nervous, I'd simply place the dumbell in her mouth, and then treat her immediately. Though, this doesn't necessarily teach them to take it out of your hand right off the bat, you can teach them to let you place something in their mouth and have them hold it there. Once there is a positive enough correlation with the dumbell, going back to try training to take the dumbell by shaping it should come much easier!

Open mouth, insert dumbell, click, remove dumbell, treat.
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Putting the dumbell in his mouth is not force, it's not harmful and it won't break his spirit.
If he's seriously shying away from you after you do that, and you know you're being gentle, then all the more reason to keep up with it and show him it's still a fun game.

Dogs need to learn that it isn't the end if the world of you 'help' them learn something. What are you teaching him by stopping everytime he shys away? Nothing. He learns nothing at all except that it's okay to shy away from mom and that if he does so you'll stop whatever you're doing. Not something I want my dogs to learn.

Obviously he's not getting it on is own, so helping him would be the next step I'd take.

And I'm willing to bet your body language was not happy when you were doing this, since you were frustrated. Of he'd be confused and think something was wrong. You need to make it fun.

I think Silverpawz, the reason everything was downhill was like you mentioned, ME! LOL. As for me stopping when he shies his head away, I guess I do it firstly because that was the first bad sign with Roxy when I was going through the stages with her. When the dumbell came out it was a bad thing, which is why I resorted to Red's method which worked wonderfully from hour one. And I'm sure the other reason is because I know how horribly sensitive he is. IMO, it's a correction when I force the dumbell in his mouth, and then when I verbally praise, or give him a treat, he just seems confused and shuts down.

I think he's just been shutting down, but apparently he does understand what's going on.

After I left my parents house I went home to start slapping on yucky, gooey food onto the dumbell. I was going to use their wet canned food. I had the food out sitting on the table, I was holding the dumbell to get ready to slap it on, and he took the dumbell. Just like that. So I went through a can of wet food as a reward.

I try to avoid the command "take it" right now, I just want him to take it and want to take it on his own. He seems to understand the concept now, I think before I just got angry, and the reason we didn't succeed was my fault.

So all we've been doing today is just taking the dumbell rewarding numerous times. Then; He'll take it, I'll take a step back call him to come, (front) take the dumbell and reward. It would appear that he understands he's not to drop it, too soon to tell I guess.

I'm horribly impatient, and he'll be doing so well, so I push forward a bit. And he refuses to take the dumbell off of the ground.

How long should I be at the stage where he takes the dumbell from my hand before I should expect for him to pick it up off the ground?

RCD, work with him until he will take it with you holding it, but the DB is on the floor. Sit on the floor and work him that way. Do whatever you can to build drive for the DB. One thing that helped, believe it or not, I put the DB on a leash and slid it around and let her chase it.

The step to picking it up without the DB in the hand is a huge leap for many dogs. Go SLOW. Reward a LOT.



(PS, there is a reason they call them working breeds, a terrier is way different, huh? LOL)

LMAO Poor Hades, ROFL

It's funny how hard Roxy loves to work, and then compare Hades, the couch potatoe... LMFAO

For his mentality though, he does *want* to please which is nice.

I get him all psyched up for the dumbell put it so he can get it, move it away really fast, kind of a game to get him amped. It appears to work, lol. He's taking it pretty well, very "tentatively" though. He's doing very well with just carrying it though. Having him take it, then call him to come.

It's funny, he thinks for some reason that he can't move the same way when he's holding the dumbell, like every step is very slow, like he's waiting to get corrected.

So I've been having him take the dumbell, than do things that he's normally very good at, (that are moving things, like swing/around, from front to heel, recall etc) and he's starting to perk up a bit, like he realizes that he can still run and move the same way with the DB in his mouth.

OK, so I'm still holding the dumbell, but it's on the floor?

Alrighty, I'll give her a go tomorrow and hopefully within a few days I can make it on for an update. Thanks Red