Pure White Pap?

On petfinder I saw a dog that looks like she could be 100% Papillon, but she's completely white. Coat type and ears definitely look Pap. I don't think she's an albino either because no pink/diluted lips or blue eyes?

What do you guys think? How does this happen?





Here's her petfinder page.


Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Papillon | Wishram, WA | Lou Lou

Isn't it possible she's a mismark from a bad breeder? It stands to reason that someone who doesn't know much about Paps would breed dogs with tons of white and accidentally get one like this if they didn't know/care.

I'm not sure but I've never seen a mismark that is 100% white before. Plus she's also deaf which is strange too because it's not like Paps can be merle and you can get a double merle deaf (or deaf and blind) pup...

Could she be mixed with chihuahua? They can have merle, right? Even if she's nto say 1/2 pap and 1/2 chi, it's possible some idiot "breeder" started mixing a bit of chi blood in to try to get some more "rare" coloring.

She really doesn't look half chi though.

It looks like she's got some red pigment on her ears, so not a total genetic white. Weird. I mean, she could be a mix that's mostly pap, but I kinda think Nolu is right and she's a mismark from a bad breeder.

ETA:

This pap genetics site says under the Extreme Piebald section that it's possible for all white paps with the gene to be born.

Papillon Information Site

No, but pigment in the inner ears can affect hearing. It's part of the reason that the breed standard specifies that they MUST have pigment over their ears. There are many breeds where deafness happens because of lack of pigment. It doesn't have to be merling that causes there to be no pigment.

Pure white can happen in the breed genetically (and any breed where extreme piebald is common.) However, it's not common. All the mismarks I've known have had some pigment on their heads but I've seen a couple pics of solid white paps. They do happen on occasion. It's not always a bad breeder thing either. I've known very good breeders to produce mismarks.

That said, she's actually not pure white either. She's got red on her ears, albeit not much.

A good breeder can produce a Pap with that much white by accident?

The only mismarks I have seen have at least had a ton of color on their heads.

I bet they can considering how many dogs are correctly marked but very extreme piebald with color barely over the ears and eyes. It would have to take the right genetics though.

I know mismarks that have bald or split faces. I've never met a breeder that had a pure white but I've heard of it happening.

I've seen some very out of standard markings around but I do think that most likely that dog is simply pet trade line mismark. I imagine in a couple generations of crossing mismarks a near white dog is very possible.

Does that mean dogs like Maltese, Bichons and other pure white dogs have higher risks of deafness?

No. The white of a maltese, bichon, etc is different than the 'white' in a papillon or other particolored type of dog. They're really genetically light cream and do have pigment.

See here:

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

The white in JRTs can be linked to hearing loss. Deafness is a relatively common issue in JRTs. And more likely to happen to dogs with white ears.

Paps seem to have similar colour patterns to one common JRTs, I wonder if its the same sore of genetics. (and JRTs its extreme piebalding too. JRTs are solid coloured dogs with a lot of white on them)

Dekka has one all white sibling and one practically all white sibling (that one had a little black dot on the inside of the ear) Neither were deaf. And the dam had never produced such white before, and its not like Kaiden is lacking colour.

From what I understand, is long as the skin pigment is dark the hearing isn't affected. That's one of the reasons the white german shepherd standard is so strict on having deep black pigment on the nose, lips, eyelids, and as much of the rest of their skin as possible (paw pads, nail beds, etc.). As far as I know, they don't have any higher incidence of deafness than dogs with colored fur.

This is the only explanation I have of why Gavroche isn't deaf and doesn't have blue eyes. His hair is all white except for a couple teeny tiny spots, but he has TONS of skin pigment. His nose is completely black, and his eye rims are almost completely black.

This Pap looks like she has dark skin pigment too? Her nose is black. The skin around her eyes don't seem to be though, I can't tell for sure.

White GSDs are not the same genetically as a white papillon either. It's not piebald but rather a really really light cream and fully pigmented. It's important to remember you can get the same physical 'look' by different genetics. There's recessive and dominant ways to get a black dog for example. Or the example that you can end up with a merle dog with a lot of white both by it being a double merle or by it being a color headed white (merle + piebald).

However, JRTs are colored genetically the same way as papillons. A white JRT is a very very extreme piebald. A white papillon is the same. It makes sense that white heads would be linked in both breeds to deafness. All papillons are either piebald or extreme piebald. White spotting essentially blocks out pigment completely in those areas, which can lead to issues. Now, a dog with white colored ears CAN be able to hear if the pigment is deep down inside the ear, but in general you want it over the ear to play it safe.

Honestly, I wonder why split faces and bald faces with white ears isn't a problem in some breeds like border collies for example. They're also white spotted so I would think that there would be that same link to deafness in them too. There are reasons certain breeds have color requirements beyond the fact that people like the way they look...

Check out around this dog's eyes. There is no pigment around the eyes. You'd see black pigment there if the dog was something like a white GSD or a bichon. The pigment on the nose appears weak to me, but it's hard to tell. Most deaf dogs I've seen still have a black nose. Some have pink spotting on it though. Nose seems to be the last place to turn pink. Think about our dogs for example... They have white spotting around their muzzles which means no pigment but they all have solid black noses.

I'm no expert but it looks too big... could have collie, or spaniel in there. Seen similar dogs before now. Smaller than a collie, bigger than a pap. There's no scale to that pic, but to me looks bigger.

Looks pure pap to me. They can be pretty big. In standard is about 6-10 lbs, but I've known them up to 15-20 lbs too. Btw, papillons are spaniels so there's definitely spaniel in there!

not paps, but

You can see that Kat has no pigment around her white surrounded eye


And Dekka has both around her white surrounded eye. The skin is not usually pigmented under the white in piebalding.


JRT noses are still supposed to be black, and should be solid. Though small amounts of pink are acceptable depending on the Judge (I asked cause of Kat's nose)