I'm sure if you were getting a pet guardian breed, you'd want it to be friendly with strangers, which is why I don't understand wanting a pet LGD, because bred right it will not be friendly with strangers. This is also why I would never get an American Kangal or CAO, because in America we water them down and want them to be stranger-friendly pets. I'm hoping to get a Kangal or CAO to guard my animals, and it will have been outside, and when it gets here it will be outside; and I hope to god it is willing to "eat someone for looking at it wrong" because otherwise I'll have to cull it, because a friendly dog won't keep my APBTs from being stolen.
Would you buy from a breeder who uses kennels?
- Thread starter Paviche
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I want a dog that won't maim/kill someone without giving them a chance to repent of their wicked ways. For one, if Chicken Thief survived there's a good chance my dog would end up confiscated and dead and I'd be paying out the nose for his medical bills. If he was dead and had litigious family? Don't wanna go there...
I never said I'd want a friendly LGD. I want one that understands eye contact from a stranger on a walk outside its territory does not constitute a threat that needs neutralizing with deadly force. They learn that through socialization. If you're never going to take your dog off the property for any reason then it's not necessary. Though I'd still argue it would be handy in the event your dog is injured and needs a trip to the e-vet. A correct LGD isn't going to be ruined by socialization. They're going to be less of a liability, and make better decisions about who is and isn't a threat. Putting a dog out and asking him to decide who should and shouldn't be bitten without giving any guidance or life experience is asking a lot. If you have good fences and no pesky neighbor kids who hit balls into your yard it's not really an issue though.
There's a certain amount of tolerance that is a good thing to have if you are going to have your LGD with you in public.
Like with Kharma. She knows how to be a total diva when she's at the store and enjoys being worshiped. However . . . if you touch the door handle to the office without being invited, or if someone comes in who just gives her a bad vibe she lets you know about it. Back away from the door and you're fine. She's been given enough experience out in public, meeting people and learning the difference between threatening and safe behavior, normal and "off" human behavior and just being able to pick up a vibe -- even from a distance -- that she's 1000% reliable as a guardian without me having to worry about her doing something that will make me have to get her out of town in a hurry.
She is also a completely different dog at home, or in the car. She put the back bedroom window out going after a prowler. Touch the car and she explodes. Walk too close to it and she'll let you know you're too close. Hang around the car area and she will watch you, every time she sees you, even if it's six months later. Oh, and don't walk by wearing a hoodie pulled over your head and/or slouched down pants, lol. She HATES that.
That's why I like having an ultra-intelligent guardian breed that has the capacity to think on their own and the ability to make good decisions without getting carried away by the excitement of the engagement. She can be with me out in public, when I'm out at night, wherever I go. Kharma enjoys her "work," but her brain doesn't fall out when her jaws open and no one has ever pushed their luck. THAT is what I want to see in a guardian.
Now, if I could just convince her to stop using my cell phone . . . :wall:
Like with Kharma. She knows how to be a total diva when she's at the store and enjoys being worshiped. However . . . if you touch the door handle to the office without being invited, or if someone comes in who just gives her a bad vibe she lets you know about it. Back away from the door and you're fine. She's been given enough experience out in public, meeting people and learning the difference between threatening and safe behavior, normal and "off" human behavior and just being able to pick up a vibe -- even from a distance -- that she's 1000% reliable as a guardian without me having to worry about her doing something that will make me have to get her out of town in a hurry.
She is also a completely different dog at home, or in the car. She put the back bedroom window out going after a prowler. Touch the car and she explodes. Walk too close to it and she'll let you know you're too close. Hang around the car area and she will watch you, every time she sees you, even if it's six months later. Oh, and don't walk by wearing a hoodie pulled over your head and/or slouched down pants, lol. She HATES that.
That's why I like having an ultra-intelligent guardian breed that has the capacity to think on their own and the ability to make good decisions without getting carried away by the excitement of the engagement. She can be with me out in public, when I'm out at night, wherever I go. Kharma enjoys her "work," but her brain doesn't fall out when her jaws open and no one has ever pushed their luck. THAT is what I want to see in a guardian.
Now, if I could just convince her to stop using my cell phone . . . :wall:
I apologize that my post was not very clear. It was late and I was tired, and I should have gone to bed instead of attempting to write a post at that hour. 
I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.
I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).
I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.
I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.
I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).
I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.
I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
I wouldn't socialize my guardian breed except with dogs because it has no need to be. I don't want a dog that will try to decide which stranger is a risk and which isn't, I want a dog that hates them all. Luckily for me, out here in the sticks of Alabama, our law says that if you step onto someone's posted property, and something happens to you, it's your fault. (With the exception of booby traps, for some reason...)
At the time when I own a livestock guardian (and I would never dream of owning one before unless it was a watered-down American version) I won't have any closeby neighbors. Right now our neighbors are nearby and I wouldn't risk having a truly hard guardian breed.
At the time when I own a livestock guardian (and I would never dream of owning one before unless it was a watered-down American version) I won't have any closeby neighbors. Right now our neighbors are nearby and I wouldn't risk having a truly hard guardian breed.
I apologize that my post was not very clear. It was late and I was tired, and I should have gone to bed instead of attempting to write a post at that hour.
I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.
I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).
I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.
I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.
I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).
I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.
I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
I don't know much about Fila, Presas, and Corsos, but I know most BBs are kept outside. How are they meant to protect livestock if they are indoors?
Not everybody has outdoor stock? My great uncle raised chinchillas in the 40s. They were indoors, and he had a mastiff he kept inside to stop chinchilla thieves. People also use LGDs as family guardians since they're overall really good at guarding and most people don't live outside or keep their valuables out on the lawn.
I was pretty glad my dogs are indoor dogs last week when that prowler tried to get in. One thing criminals will look for is dogs outside, because if a guard dog is outside generally the inside will be free and clear if they can find a way around it.
I was pretty glad my dogs are indoor dogs last week when that prowler tried to get in. One thing criminals will look for is dogs outside, because if a guard dog is outside generally the inside will be free and clear if they can find a way around it.
I know that, I'm just saying that you can't discount a breeder of a livestock guardian just because they keep their dogs outside, many outside dogs have a job to do, such as the one they were bred for. And contrary to popular belief, the dogs won't fall to pieces if they're kept outside; they get used to it. It's not hectic like a shelter environment. They have a owner who provides exercise and stimulation and affection, and they don't lose their instinct to guard that owner, either.
Look to any "less developed" (I hate to use that term, but I can't think of another) country and see where they keep their dogs. Their Kangals, CAOs, and other guardian molossers. It's not in the house. Their dogs are outside. Their dogs are still good guardians, and they're out there doing a job.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that you should keep your LG outside; keep your dog where you want it, where it does the most good in your situation. I'm just saying that people who DO aren't bad breeders.
Look to any "less developed" (I hate to use that term, but I can't think of another) country and see where they keep their dogs. Their Kangals, CAOs, and other guardian molossers. It's not in the house. Their dogs are outside. Their dogs are still good guardians, and they're out there doing a job.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that you should keep your LG outside; keep your dog where you want it, where it does the most good in your situation. I'm just saying that people who DO aren't bad breeders.
Is it possible you have mixed up LGD and estate guardians with personal protection dogs?
Breeds primarily used for *real* livestock guarding are *not* reliant and obsessively connected to their humans, they need to be independent thinkers capable of working alone and not traumatized by minimal human interaction.
Personal protection dogs (which is the most humorously abused term) however are expected to rely on ques and *must* be social. What good is a protection dog that must be crated when you have strangers about?
My previous boss bred, trained, and sold LGD and the like for estate guardians and security work. These dogs worked ship yards, estates, and other large rather high security areas and were expected to be not only content but excel at solo and canine companion living. Often kenneled during the day, they were released at night and knew their jobs and it was to discourage and take down any potential perimeter violation.
They were very good, much better than the Malinois and dobes, but I'm totally seeing the LGD used interchangeably with PP, which ime is incorrect.
Breeds primarily used for *real* livestock guarding are *not* reliant and obsessively connected to their humans, they need to be independent thinkers capable of working alone and not traumatized by minimal human interaction.
Personal protection dogs (which is the most humorously abused term) however are expected to rely on ques and *must* be social. What good is a protection dog that must be crated when you have strangers about?
My previous boss bred, trained, and sold LGD and the like for estate guardians and security work. These dogs worked ship yards, estates, and other large rather high security areas and were expected to be not only content but excel at solo and canine companion living. Often kenneled during the day, they were released at night and knew their jobs and it was to discourage and take down any potential perimeter violation.
They were very good, much better than the Malinois and dobes, but I'm totally seeing the LGD used interchangeably with PP, which ime is incorrect.
(Speaking from just my limited experience) LGs will guard their "pack". Raised around people, their pack is their human family. Raised around livestock, their pack is the livestock. It's all the same instinct, so having your dog outside guarding livestock doesn't rob it of its genetic ability to guard humans. If they are born with the instinct, the instinct stays, so the pups they breed (since this IS on the subject of breeding) will be no less apt to guard human beings than if that had been their parents job as well.
In other words, if you want to buy an LG pup to be a guardian for yourself, you're just as likely to get a good one from an outside dog guarding something other than people as from one who's guarding people. A good LG is a good LG and will guard whatever you make its "pack".
Like I (and someone else) mentioned before, PP dogs aren't worth much. They look tough in trials, but in real situations a PP dog is about as useful as an unloaded gun; threatening but ineffective.
In other words, if you want to buy an LG pup to be a guardian for yourself, you're just as likely to get a good one from an outside dog guarding something other than people as from one who's guarding people. A good LG is a good LG and will guard whatever you make its "pack".
Like I (and someone else) mentioned before, PP dogs aren't worth much. They look tough in trials, but in real situations a PP dog is about as useful as an unloaded gun; threatening but ineffective.
I completely disagree on the last point. I have sport trained protection dogs and I struggle to make them less serious about day-to-day interactions.
I also know that there are those that exist which are purely sporty.
I also think more "PP" dogs are joke. Meaning, those dogs that are in-home-day-to-day-no-testing-no-training PP dogs, not those trained and tested in competition venues. Most people haven't a clue what really goes into building, conditioning, and controlling a real protection dog.
Plus "PP" sounds stupid. LOL
I also know that there are those that exist which are purely sporty.
I also think more "PP" dogs are joke. Meaning, those dogs that are in-home-day-to-day-no-testing-no-training PP dogs, not those trained and tested in competition venues. Most people haven't a clue what really goes into building, conditioning, and controlling a real protection dog.
Plus "PP" sounds stupid. LOL
LGD can and do transfer their guarding from livestock to person; and in a litter there are dogs that are going to be more suited to the totally autonomous lifestyle of living outside with the livestock; and then there will be more people oriented pups that can comfortably live in the house.
AS for this; Russians and other Eastern and Central European countries do indeed keep their guardian dogs in the house AND in the yard; very fenced in compound-type yards to be precise; but they have house dogs and yard dogs. South Africa does the same thing. Boerboels in the house guarding the family, sometimes a dog to a room or housing section, a pack of Boerboels running the compound guarding the house. Yes dogs do get to be left in yurts and yes dogs do get to be kept in village homes; especially if women and children are left behind. They are considered dual purpose dogs; livestock and family guards and they guard from both inside and outside.
AS for this; Russians and other Eastern and Central European countries do indeed keep their guardian dogs in the house AND in the yard; very fenced in compound-type yards to be precise; but they have house dogs and yard dogs. South Africa does the same thing. Boerboels in the house guarding the family, sometimes a dog to a room or housing section, a pack of Boerboels running the compound guarding the house. Yes dogs do get to be left in yurts and yes dogs do get to be kept in village homes; especially if women and children are left behind. They are considered dual purpose dogs; livestock and family guards and they guard from both inside and outside.
@Cliff; not sure that there are in-house Kangals typically; that is one huge-ass dog. Good guy to talk to would be Andrew J of Olympic dogs; he's an interesting dude; he went over there to get his boy. http://www.olympicdogs.net/ Love what he's doing with natural rearing/whelping/raising of pups and how he runs his dogs.
