Vent (about showing)

Did you happen to ask the breeder her future plans with this dog? If not, you have no reason to criticize. A very close friend had a bitch she was showing, the bitch was pointed. It came time to do the health tests and she didn't pass her OFA hips. After much heartache on the part of my friend, she decided to go ahead and finish this bitch and then spay her. She was never bred, but she finished with the owner knowing full well that she hadn't passed her hip exams. She never hid it from anyone, and when people would approach her at shows to comment and ask about puppies she told them exactly why she wasn't breeding this bitch.

You can't judge a book by its cover, and I'm not saying this lady was in the right, but if you don't have the full story, you shouldn't comment.

I know lots of people are down on conformation breeders. When you breed for ONE thing, then yeah other things fall by the wayside. I have seen plenty of people breeding working dogs with no health testing because "They work good, there must be nothin' wrong." Crock of crap there too. If you don't test you don't know. Period. The working breeder who neglects testing is just as bad as the conformation breeder who neglects function.

Yup. I don't care if you show or don't. I don't care whether or not you title in performance venues. But I do care if you offer the pups as "prospects" for something specific when the parents haven't been proven in that. Show prospects should have show Ch's for parents and for most of their ancestry. Agility prospects should have a long list of ancestors with high level agility titles and preferably agility championships. Obedience prospects should have a pedigree filled with UD's+. Pets should have ancestors with TT's, CGC's, etc. And they all should have proof of health testing.

I have to agree- showing isn't the be all end all. It's just one way of proving your dog is worthy of breeding.

There's also working your dog, or doing agility, or schutzhund training...whatever it is that tickles you.

But, you've gotta do SOMETHING with your dogs. And you've gotta health test.

this is how I exactly how I feel about it. you've gotta do SOMETHING

those who are looking for "just a pet" can go to the MANY great show, working, or sport breeders. many pups that aren't great for the show ring or w/e it may be, are sold to great homes as pets.

this isn't 100 % accurate. some work eliminates the need for testing as the work will show the defect.
for example sighthounds have low incidence of HD and running game 3+ days (nights) a week or racing will breakdown a dog w/ HD in a year or so & cause it to fail at it's job. that means by the time a gyp or young dog has reached breeding age (by performance not physiology) you'll know most of the obvious health issues & so only need to test for late onset conditions & communicable disease. this is equally true of scenttrailing breeds that are used on hard running game. weight pulling, carting or sledding extensively will also breakdown a dog pretty quickly. the conditioning that went into prepping a pit dog back in the day went a long way toward eliminating HD/ED from some lines. this is equally true of cardiovascular issues in most of these fields.
von wilbrands won't last long in dogs used on dangerous game as it will kill the dogs off. it'll struggle to exist in any field dog breed unless a single carrier stud gets overbred (common in birddogs and competition hounds & curs).
all of that said, i agree there are a lot of junk breeders in hounds & curs (mostly it is guys paying to breed their mediocre bitch/gyp to winning competition dogs). fewer in working sighthounds (i think the lack of financial incentive from sales or competition wins has a lot to do with this) & working type terriers (like pats, and the few imported borders). no disrespect to the JRT, as a whole they got screwed by popularity but there is tons of good blood in this breed.

I agree. The owner of Uno, the beagle who won Westminster, has chosen not to breed him, ever. I don't know why, but it was a very controversal decision and I respect the owner for sticking to what she believes.

Though I'm suprised this dog won if his gait was wonky. Maybe it's true that the other dachshunds were even worse than he was.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this one of the very reasons why Kennel Club bench showing is flawed? That by going to known shows with poor quality dogs that a person can Title such a dog? Nothing like being the best of the worst!!

The beagle that you spoke of, if they knew there was something wrong with that dog BEFORE Westminister and then said they were not going to bred him is wrong (if that is the case). If they found out something after the fact then it is a different story and that should be respected. Also why wouldn't they state WHY the dog is now non breeding, considering that shows such as Westminister are suppose to be the show case of the top breeding dogs, not the soon to be s/n.

Interesting story, I'll have to check it out, thanks.

I didn't say that they haven't said why they're not breeding the dog, I said that I don't know why they're not breeding the dog. It's not an area I have a lot of interest in so I haven't done research myself, I've just heard that they're not breeding him.

I guess it would depend on the breed but I think it'd be darn hard to do this in my breed and in my area. You need a pretty ridiculous amount of dogs to beat to get a major. Maybe you could scratch a few points without going up against many other good dogs, but around here at least you have to beat a lot to get a major. Beau's 2 majors were over 50 something other dogs.

:yikes:

Charlie's breeder has been working with goldens for over 30 years. When I asked her how hard it was to finish a golden with them being so common, she pointed at a beautiful golden and said that it took 184 shows for her to get her three majors. She said that it gets to a point where you are competing against so many dogs, that there will be an entire tier of dogs competing who are all about equal quality. At that stage it all becomes about the handling, the grooming, the impeccable behavior in the ring, who the handler is, etc. when selecting BOB.

Also, I hate how a breeder with crappy dogs can go to a smaller show and enter half a dozen of their crappy dogs, to build a major for one of their crappy dogs to win over. It happens, and it sucks. I really don't like that system of judging.

Both are reasons I am a big fan of competing against a standard, instead of each other.

To be fair they were both 5 point majors, lol. But I think even for 3 points you have to beat 25 or so dogs. They're a really really popular breed at shows here. They have one of the largest entries (so do ridgebacks oddly enough...neither compare to goldens though) Oh and our specials lineup those days had 5 of the top 10 papillons in the country, including the #1 dog. BOB was pretty brutal.

I see nothing wrong with showing, titleing, and continuing to show a dog you have no intention of breeding. Before Jazz had to be re-homed, I was specialing her, even tho she had health issues that we found, and should not have been bred.

Also to the OP - This is a case of the pot callling the kettle black. You are mad because someone showed a dog with bad knees, yet acording to your site you are breeding untested, non titled dogs under 2yrs. Hmm....

i have absolutly no problem with someone showing their dog FOR fun with no intention to breed...

but i cant help wonder what the point of showing a dog with bad knees realy is...
are you expecting the dog to win?! if so that says an awefully horrifying thing about the other dogs your showing against...if a dog with knees bad enough to effect gait can take place...wow...thats all i can say.

i guess for me, showing your dog in confo (whether planning to breed or not) yes it should be fun (and mabe thats why this woman chose to do it) but at the same time, if im showing its to prove that my dog is a good specimine of the breed...
bad knees, i dont care how "pretty" your dog is... should be an automatic disqualification...

one of the reasons i dont like most confo shows is that its a beauty pagent, im all too many its gone from judging dogs against the standard itself to judging which is the prettiest of the given group...pretty is all well and good, if the dog is HEALTHY too...but pretty is also why standards change...many of todays dogs look nothing like they did when this all started, standard changes to suit "todays interpritation" *sigh*

then theres the whole popularity contest going on...
as much as they say they dont, ive seen it happen, judges favoring a specific breed ect...

i think confo shows are a good for some structural feedback, a set of experineced objective eyes to say "well your dogs topline is a little off, or the heads not quite right" ect...but i dont think a confo CH is the do all be all end all....
and showing dogs with obcious issues says to me, wow, what are you expecting to acomplish?

i do feel that dogs should be titled in other feidls...
the OP has earth dogs, in her case titles in that feild would outweigh CH titles form a confo ring...ect.

as for the OP, theres been quite a bit of beratting that i think needs to die back...
theres educating and then theres Beating it to death...
most people WILL shut down with the aproach many have been taking with this op, they get so sick of the belittling they just stop reading it...

now do i agree with the practices...
not nessicarily, i dont like that the op breeds under 2 yrs, i think this is a practice she seraiously needs to look into. I also feel that putting the health testing under scruitny is a good thing, instead of "helth testing" your young dogs (which health tesint gyoung is good) health test at or a little after 2, and wait to breed untill after that. Youd be amazed at how much difference that 6mths-1yr makes in a dog. And if you health test as you say you do BE PROUD of that, put your results up on your website, publish them, you WANT people to know so show them the results...

i do know people here are passionate, bit its certainly crossed a line from attempts to educate to almost flat out name calling.

but thats all for a different thread.

just to point out.. many health tests aren't that conclusive at 2. You need to wait, or at least continue to test as your dogs get older. (then there are some tests like BAER that can be done very young and are accurate)

Dekka, what do you think of Pennhip done at 16 weeks (I think)?




I don't trust a dog to do anything that it wasn't bred to do... I don't expect a dog bred for show to do anything but be an easy pet and look *pretty* (that's subjective lol) but it seems that many can't even be that.

I used to be all indignant that show lines exist but not anymore. They're a good thing.

Take presas for example. There are more traditional "presa" lines and then there are "dogo" lines, and I will make a generalization that these dogos are primarily show lines, or not bred for "work." Now a real presa isn't for the inexperienced, uninformed dog owner. Most people just want the idea of a presa. These "dogos" or show line dogs in general, act as a buffer, they fill the niche for someone ignorant enough to buy one. If you manage to track down a breeder of quality presas and obtain one you are probably ready for one As long as the dogo breeders are decent breeders of dogs (ie, they may not breed for the real presa temperament but have healthy stable dogs) then we get people happy with their dogo, who never have a use for an actual presa and thus will never discover that their dog doesn't have proper temperament. We keep big cropped brindle dogs off the news, because no one is "over dogged." To use a border collie example, if you somehow manage to buy a showline dog to work your sheep that means you didn't do your research in the first place. A joe-blow model and then a authentic one. Perfect

Well not really lol, but it's better than people who don't know crap actually getting their hands on a real presa that is bred to bite things and hold on, or a border collie that is meant to herd sheep all day. I know, I know, people shouldn't buy a border collie if that can't handle that. Good luck convincing people of this, lol. You know how they say "set your dog up for success" well with this method we set both the general public and the breed up for success.

absolutly agree dekka, tests should be repeated regularly throughout the dogs life.

I don't like shows, some breeds are being destroy by them.

Breeds are not destroyed by showing. They are destroyed by greedy breeders. It doesn't matter whether they are greedy for ribbons, greedy for "easy cash" (like puppymillers), or someone who is greedy blind to their own dog's faults beyond "He/she's such a wonderful pet with a wonderful temperament, it would be a crime not to let him/her have puppies!".

It's when people breed reasons contrary to the betterment of the breed. At least most show line golden retrievers (the ones I have met) have correct temperaments. Back yard breeders and puppymills are ruining that breed.

With any breeder, breeding away from correct functional conformation, working ability, good health and temperament is a detriment to whatever breed they are working.

Its been a long time since I was dragged on the dog show circuit as a kid. But it was always my understanding that the dog had to be sound . . . that's part of conformation. And that it had to move correctly . . . it sounds like this dog wasn't moving right, and therefore should not have been put up. Of course, maybe things have changed. Or no one really cares any more. Or perhaps knows how a dog is supposed to move.