Agility training

On the RC vs 2o2o debate.. Yes 2o2o needs regular maintenance but is more reliable than RC. At Karen Holik's contact seminar she said that you will never, ever have 100% RC. EVER. She's tried all the methods of training RC (does 2o2o with her BC and RC with her sheltie) and unfortunetly there isn't a perfect method yet. She basically said that if you choose RC, you will have missed contacts and you absolutely can not be upset about it. It's just something that comes with the method at least for now until there is a way to teach 100% RC.

Congrats on your Q with Zuma!

I certainly didn't mean that running contacts are the wrong answer - I was simply explaining my rational for not training them myself. Plenty of people are willing and able to take the gamble on missed calls or just plain missed contacts (I've also heard plenty of very top people say that, fact of life, running will never be as reliable, although it is certainly plenty reliable for a lot of people). I'm not. I'm not that person mentally, and I don't trial enough to be willing to lose the Qs on it.

Stopped contacts may very well take maintenance; but then, I do maintenance on all my dogs' skills. Meg still gets regular reinforcement for hitting her contacts, start line stays, rear crosses...whatever we are working on. She has her championship, they are skills she could do in her sleep. Perhaps because she is a dog with so many confidence issues, it is just how I train. We have big parties for the big stuff, but we have parties for the little stuff too. We do rep work on basics so there are a lot of chances for her to get told she is a genius. Gusto may not have confidence issues (to put it lightly!) but he'll get the same because it works for me.

There is a dog that trials around here that has crazy stopped contacts - full on accelerating to the position even if his handler, who has some physical problems, is 100 miles behind and running the opposite way to get into position for the next obstacle. I've always pointed at him and said "those are the contacts I want on my next dog!". We all have different images of what the perfect agility run looks like

Woohoo, congrats! Glad to hear Zuma is having a blast even if it does result in NQs sometimes.

Hurray Zuma!!!!!

Susan Garrett said something interesting in her most recent set of webinars: if a behaviour is too simple for a dog, you risk losing it.

She said it in response to her dog Encore losing the nose touch component of her running contacts over time. After talking it over with Bob Bailey, it was suggested to her that the easier a behaviour is for a dog the more likely it will be forgotten/ignored/neglected as time progresses. Garrett said that that's a big reason why she trains the multiple nose touch 2o2o contacts with her dogs. The multiple touches seem to be retained longer in dogs.

She also used this tactic to manage Buzz's start line stay. She would cue sit/stand/down at random before releasing him, since he was too amped up to hold a simple, predictable sit stay.

I like the idea of building some complexity into simple behaviours to help with retention.

Congrats on the Q and good Luck!

Everyone has an opinion of course but I tend to question anytime someone says "never, ever" concerning dog training and what works or doesn't.

I think it's sort of strange that people use the reliability thing as an issue with RCs but you don't so much hear that talk with any other obstacles. Does anyone expect that their dog will have 100% life long reliability on jumps? weaves? obstacle discrimination? If so, which methods are known to produce 100% reliability on these things? I remember Susan Garrett was called out on this double standard on her blog when one of her dogs had weave issues at a big competition.

FWIW Silvia Trkman says this about reliability and RCs:

"- How reliable are running contacts?

Some dogs are 100%, some aren't - depends on individual dog and the training he had - as with every method, I guess... La was pretty much 100% for 5 years of intensive competing - when all of the sudden, she started to jump – just 10 days before WC in Basel! I tried to quick fix it, but only created a conflict and made it even worse, so her contacts were as bad as 50-50 at that time. Later, we found out she was reluctant to put that front leg down because of a pain in a shoulder… Poor doggy. We’re slowly getting back to old % now…

With Bu, I had more problems because she is afraid of unknown dog-walks and therefore slower, so her striding is totally off and I did have problems first on new dog-walks. I’m lucky to be able to train on many different dog-walks during my seminars, so the problem was pretty much solved before she started to compete, but her speed over new dog-walks is still not s good as on ours." http://silvia.trkman.net/conedva.htm

I also tend to think that RCs get a bad reputation because the majority of RCs you see aren't trained RCs. They are early release 2o2o or people who haven't trained any specific contact behavior. Or they rushed through teaching a RC. It also seems there is definitely a lot more room for training error with RCs too.

I didn't think you were saying they were wrong. I just thought we were having a discussion about contacts

I have seen dogs like that too. Great training for sure but it always seems more of a necessity. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate all different things for what they are though and that I don't find all different types of runs fun to watch. Honestly, any time dogs are happy, well trained and having fun at trials I think that's great

And I definitely think it's best to maintain reinforcement for things you like. One of the comments I got when I went to the WAO team's run-thru's was "Glad to see you use clicks to mark good behavior" because I marked/reinforced contacts and weaves. I think maintaining reinforcement is just good training, no matter what you're doing!

I did see that and it is an interesting idea. It was also interesting to see how many people responded when she first asked about contacts (prior to the webinars) saying they were having trouble with their 2o2o.

Just wanted to be sure I wasn't coming across as saying that everyone should train stopped! Heaven knows, every dog needs something different, and when you add in the variable of all handlers being different, I doubt anything works for everyone.

I agree that there is probably a lot of things that come into the reliability of RCs. We can never see every single rep people do, so there is always the possibility that there is more going on behind the scenes than we realize. Like I said, we have some people who train running contacts where I train, and they are fantastic. Carefully trained, carefully maintained. As soon as the dogs start lifting their heads through the contact, they put in more reps. And they are remarkably reliable. Not faultless, of course, because they are dogs, but very good. Getting to see them worked on definitely gives me respect for those who train super running contacts.

I love my stopped contacts, and will keep striving to have those crazy fast independent ones with Gusto. Heaven knows I'm going to need as much obstacle independence as possible with the little loon!

Hi everybody, I am back to this thread hoping someone may have an idea for me!

So last week I was given two jumping exercises, and this week I am to keep working on those two and we have added in the set point exercise. My issue is, two of these exercises require me to leave the toy on the ground and out of reach while he drives to it. The first one is a Susan Salo exercise, there are 5 jumps, 6 feet apart and only 8 inches in height, and I am to reward him when he takes each individually and doesn't 'bounce' over two at once. For this exercise, when he doesn't do it right, I can't get to the toy before he does. The other exercise is the set point one, and like the grid I cannot reach the toy in time before he gets it.

My instructor originally told me (for exercise 1 when it was first assigned) that it's fine that he gets the toy when he bounces, just don't interact or play with him. When he does it right, then PARTY PARTY and tug like crazy. So last week I did this exercise everyday and just could not for the life of my get him to reliably step between each jump. It became clear that getting the toy at all was enough of a reward for him, because while I was standing there silently he was playing with it and squeaking it on his own lol.

Anyway, this week at class, when my instructor stood next to the toy and removed it when he bounced, the exercise totally clicked for him. Obviously it needs more work, but removing the toy made it very clear to him that the bounce was not what we wanted. Anyway, my instructor told me I will need a volunteer to stand near the toy and remove it for the grid exercise and the new one I got this week (set point).

My problem - I don't have anyone who can practice with me often enough My parents are busy with work, my boyfriend doesn't want to come over everyday of the week just for agility practice, brother is not interested... lol. What I want to know is if anyone has an idea for how I can do these exercises without help. I am not creative and I can't come up with any good ideas that can prevent him from getting the toy when he doesn't perform the exercise correctly. Any input would be awesome!

Is he target trained? I'm wondering if you could substitute a target for the toy (still a visual object for him to focus on), then click the target touch and reward with the toy from your hand.

He is target trained, and that is not a bad idea. So if he didn't perform the exercise correctly, when he touched the target I just wouldn't follow up with toy play?

Are you starting the exercises with him in a sit right in front of the first jump so that he isn't entering with speed?

Also, what about breaking it down for him at first? Put the toy right in front of the second jump and reward him for taking the first jump alone a few times so that he understands that they are 2 separate jumps.

He really likes extension this guy, lol!

These two exercises I need help with I start him very close to the bars so he doesn't build up a lot of speed

My trainer did have me do that, when he bounced (always the last two jumps in the sequence), I would put the toy in front of the last jump to reward him landing between them. I would repeat 4-5 times to try and cement the concept before asking him for the last jump but when I went back to doing the whole sequence he was right back to bouncing. When we stopped allowing him to grab the toy though, he did start to land. I think that being allowed to grab the toy was enough of a reward in addition to simply enjoying the "wheee!" aspect of bouncing So while I was trying to only reward taking the jumps individually, he still enjoyed grabbing the toy and bouncing enough to continue doing what he felt comfortable doing (bouncing). Anyway, long story short I did try to reward smaller steps and it does work, but ultimately if he can still grab the toy bouncing is clearly way more fun to him than having to land

Oh gosh he sure loves it lol. I feel optimistic about the exercises we are doing helping him in class, but I still don't feel that confident that they will transfer over to a trial setting. I have a feeling he will go right back to major extension and I will be left standing there like this --> lol.

Oh well, I'll see what happens with time. Also I am going to try and get a video of the stuff we are doing so I can post it and get feedback from you guys

ETA: I really appreciate the help, advice and opinions you guys have given me. I feel bad because I never contribute help to this thread but always ask for your thoughts lol. If I knew more I promise I would contribute, I just don't know diddly squat about agility compared to you guys lol.

Yeah, video is always helpful, and the target idea might be your best option if you don't have someone to help you.

Does he have a solid sit stay? If you lead out and place the toy far enough out past the last jump and stand beside it you could (theoretically) steal it away in time if he bounced maybe?

That is awesome you have people training true RCs where you train! I wish there were more people into more serious agility training around here.

I love the idea of RCs and love watching dogs with good ones but I probably wouldn't encourage more people I see at class to try them. I think 2o2o is ideal for many dogs/handlers for a variety of reasons.

I can't wait to see videos of Gusto doing agility - he sounds like way too much fun!

It wasn't it quotation marks, I'm sure she didn't use those exact words. The point was that there is not a method out there that creates 100% reliable running contacts for every dog yet and that if you choose that method that you will have missed contacts. That rings true for every method though, it just seems that having a stopped contact makes for more reliable results.
She also pointed out that a lot of the people that are known for running contacts and seem to never miss in trials tend to only post the good videos (who doesn't?) and that she has witnessed a lot of those trainers, including the European ones, in trial and they miss a lot more than they lead on.

Another interesting point she brought up is that those dogs that thrive on being right do not do well with running contacts. The reason behind this is because those dogs tend to slow down and lose motivation if they are wrong. So, for every non-rewarded time, they are slowing down just a hair. Yes they will have beautiful running contacts during training then, however when they are high at trials, the contacts tend to fall apart. This is why they need to be trained when the dog is flat out running (Trkman) and that slowing down from lack of motivation ruins it. Zuma couldn't ever learn RC because of this. She and I both need absolute black and white criteria otherwise our motivation suffers. Yes, I may train RC on a dog in the future if they arn't as soft as Zuma, but it's not the right method for her.

Here are the videos for our Saturday runs..

First is Novice JWW... Things I liked about this run: start line stay, she stayed connected for the most part. Things that need improvement: would it kill her to collect and wrap a jump like we've been practicing for MONTHS?! I accidentally pushed her around that jump causing a refusal because of that stupid post (but now I know that it would've been better to send her further rather than move in closer). The weave entrance was awful, should've collected her sooner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SSMNhH8dM&feature=youtu.be

Here's our standard run... if you look closely, you can see little bits of Zuma brain from her mind explosion. You can tell she wasn't connected at all even at the start line, she was making googly eyes at the judge the whole time which caused her teeter weirdness.. It was all lost from there. LOL My fav part is when the crowd stopped "awww"ing and started laughing along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwmv5hw8plc&feature=youtu.be

All in all, good fun learning experience for the baby dog in a new location. We had things go very well (she held a start line stay for me to lead out THREE jumps on Sunday!!), and things we need to improve on.

Lol at googly eyes at the judge.

Great runs, and she is so going to be absolutely amazing when she learns how to keep her brain in her head.

Just out of curiosity, how tall is she? Is she jumping 20" in these vids?

I can't wait for her to get there!! She runs very nicely at our home school, but I've been getting her out trialing at the surrounding venues to help her learn to avoid the brain explosion.

She's 17.75", I elect to jump her 20" because she has a hard time collecting over jumps and tends to jump very flat at 16". She jumps in extension regardless at trials and we are trying to fix that.

That's all I was getting at - nothing is 100% reliable with dogs. It seems silly to me to hold contacts to a higher standard than everything else in agility. People still love 2x2 weaves even though they proved not to be 100% reliable even with SG's own dogs. But let one person see a RC trainer's dog fly off one time and it's proof that the method won't work.

FWIW My handling and running ability is definitely not 100% reliable either


Silvia Trkman's Bu is from all accounts about weird and soft as you can get and she has really nice RCs. This is what she says about training such dogs RCs (not trying to change your mind about them of course or say you should try it with Zuma, just adding to the discussion):

http://www.silvia.trkman.net/