Do you punish for ignoring recall?

Right so this week I had an unexpected critical situation with Axel... We work on his recall every day in various situations (at home, in the park, even worked on it in a pet store!) and 99% of the time he comes back within seconds and I don't have to repeat it. However, now that he started his adolescent period and I'm not his "god" anymore he likes to push the boundaries. After the first time he refused to come to me during his zoomies and took it as a game he went back on the long line.
We were visiting my boyfriend's family during christmas and on christmas morning we took Axel and the family dog out for a nice long walk in the park. As they both were behaving and playing nicely with each other (there's a 10 year difference between them) we allowed them to be off leads (I didn't have our long line with me). Out of nowhere a GSD bitch came running up and enticed the dogs into a game of catch... We knew her well so didn't think much. Just stopped and allowed Axel to chase her for a bit. He came running back to me when I called him away from her when she jumped into the pond (which I was very proud of!) but then she decided to catch up with her owners (who btw appeared to be ridiculously far away from their dog! I'm talking about 300 feet). But she was still playing with Axel who foolishly ran after her. I called his name but it didn't help and only after almost getting to her owners he realised how far he is from me and actually came running back. Now, I know it's my fault for letting him off lead and allowing this situation to happen and will be making sure that never happens again. What i am wondering is what is the right thing to do when the dog comes back in this (or similar) situation? I've been told before that you should never put the dog straight on the lead or tell him off in any way because next time he may not come back because he knows he will be in trouble. So I didn't say anything when he came back but "yes" which I say when he does something good, played with him a little bit and then put the lead back on after walking another few steps. I did all of this because I didn't want him to be scared to come back to me. But was this the right thing to do? If not, what is the right thing? What would you do if the dog runs off after something and then comes back? What should one do if the dog comes back but not immediately after the recall? It's so hard to think when your guilty dog comes running back with such face:

I never punish a recall, it's just a risky thing to do in general. Even with a e-collar, it's something I'd rather avoid.

If my recall fails, that tells me it is time to step back and re-train it in a more controlled environment. When he comes back, I reward him for returning anyway because the timing for any "punishment" was the second he turned away from the recall, not 30 seconds after he made the incorrect judgement after he complies and is next to you.

It's also why an Emergency Recall is really important to have, IMO. If your regular recall fails, you want a back up one if an emergency happens due to the failure.

Reward, reward, reward, that's what I do. When Diesel is being foolish I make sure I have treats on hand and we practice even more, every time he comes right back he gets praised and a treat.

I would never ever punish a dog after he came back, no matter how sloppy or late, it's the wrong time. I would simply take note of what happened and realize the dog is not ready to be off leash yet, at least not in a stimulating environment, so keep him on the long line in the future. I would probably leash him though after he came back, not intending it as a punishment but because it isn't safe for him to be off leash if he's not listening. Once you leash him tug or jog a little so he isn't suddenly having no fun after returning to you, try to make it as non-punishing as possible. Now the question really is should you reward the dog for coming back after blowing you off? I don't really know. I probably would because I personally think it would make him come faster the next time, but that might depend on the individual and how far into the training process he is. Not sure.

I absolutely never punish a recall. Choosing to come to me should always, ALWAYS be a positive thing - otherwise, why would they want to?

Agreed with RBark, I take it as a sign that I need to brush up that skill.

Thanks everyone!:hail: I'm just confused if it's better to reward a late recall or to ignore it... Some say to only reward the dog if he comes immediately after he's been called, but others say that you should reward the dog every time he makes the decision to come to you because you want to encourage this choice. On one hand if I treat Axel for every time he comes back, no matter how late he does it, I make it exciting and fun for him to come back. But if he gets rewarded even after continuing having his own fun when I asked for his attention, then he gets his way AND a reward for being a brat :dunno:

That's probably something more individual than a generic answer. If you find rewarding him when he comes late is not helping, try ignoring it. Whichever one works is the one you should do. I personally reward it no matter what.

I wouldn't punish the action of coming to you, but I would punish non compliance (so if I gave the command and it was ignored). Do you use a no reward marker? If the dog has a strong NRM I would mark them when they didn't respond to the recall.

I think it also helps to have a very clear criteria on what the recall command is. For me it means the dog comes the first time I call, every time within 2 seconds of the command being given. Anything less than that I wouldn't consider a trained recall so I would continue training for the criteria I set.

Just a quick disclaimer that I am not saying I would train a recall with punishment but if I were to give a consequence for ignoring the command it would be at the moment the dog chose not to comply with the command.

It's hard in the moment, but no don't punish. He did come back, and you want to encourage him to do that again. If you punish when he comes back... you're not really punishing the fact that he blew it off the first time, but instead you're punishing him for coming back?

I don't think you are doomed to have a horrible recall if you give some sort of punishment when they get back after blowing you off... Can't tell you how many times I've chucked my dogs right back in the house after ignoring a recall... I just wouldn't make a habit of it.

You don't punish when they come back, but then you also don't reward either if you called and they took their time coming back. Doing so is rewarding them for leaving and not an immediate compliance of the recall.

So you go back to more training and proofing, collar grabs and making the leash go on as a great time is about to begin.

To clarify, anytime and every time the dog comes asap when called, reward 100 % for a long long time.

Anytime and every time the dog choses to check in with you, stick close or comes to you is rewarded (when you don't call them and they were given permission to leave)

Dog leaves without permission and/or doesn't come when called isn't rewarded. Get them do something else, simple fast trick, sit, down, spin etc then reward.

If you reward for them leaving or taking their time coming back when called, why would they ever have an immediate recall? It is a win/win for the dog

Absolutely not. I never associate anything punitive in association with the recall. And that includes being conscious of not inadvertently punishing him by doing something he doesn't like after he comes. (nail clipping, ear cleaning, stopping all fun he was just having)

I start out rewarding the dog when it comes to me on it's own...or with enticement, (running the other way, making squeaky noises, using a squeaky toy) but NOT using a cue at first. If a puppy comes over to me when I'm sitting on the couch, when I'm doing something in the house...he gets a big fuss and/or treat (if I have one handy) every time he comes close to me. I always wear clothes with pockets so I have treats on me most always.

When the dog comes to me often and easily, regularly, I start adding in a cue, "let's go." Or if it's on a leash walk, I'll use "let's go." I ONLY use the cue IF he's already coming to me. I get hold of him for a couple seconds and then slip in a release word before letting him go back to what he was doing. He needs to learn to come all the way to me and not run off without permission. So, he needs to get use to hearing the release word before he is released. Letting him go back to freedom and fun is part of the reinforcement along with a treat/praise.

When I can start eliciting the recall with a cue, I don't try it if he's very motivated with something else in his environment...not for a while. I wait until he's already coming to me to use a cue.

When he gets better with that, I start picking the fastest, most prompt recalls to reward with a high value treat and lots of fuss. If he dawdles and isn't very good, but eventually comes, I'll say, "good" but no treat.

I try to set him up for success by not trying to cue him to come in situations that are still too difficult for him....where he's too distracted or motivated by something better in the environment. That will come later when he's had a strong and long history of reinforcement behind him. I gradually increase the degree of difficulty. It's a process. It doesn't happen over night, but it just gets better with time.

This. Of course a recall can be the difference between life and death and it's very important, but just as a comparison, to me it's like punishing a dog for sitting on cue if it hesitated.

It depends on the dog, I think. Fable has always been easily distracted and she didn't start off with her recall as her strongest suit like Millie. I ended up rewarding her for coming to me even if she made a stop along the way, which in turn helped her to want to come to me faster in the future. Maybe it was the wrong way to do it, but it worked. Of course if she came immediately the reward she got was much bigger than if she stopped to smell the roses.