The Trainers Game

CP,
Of course I am curious!!!!!!!!!!! As I am sure others are as well.

Well after breaking down the two separate exercises several times over, going back through all the initial training steps to see if we missed anything several times and finding nothing...

One thing I tried was using toys instead of a dumbbell. I used a ball, I used various dumbbell shaped toys - a rope toy, a rubber dumbbell toy, a rawhide. None of that was a problem for her - she would gladly carry them over the a-frame. It always fell apart at the point of putting the two exercises together.

So one day I went out to the training field and (after warming up, doing some retrieves on the flat, doing some jumping and retrieves over the jumps, doing some a-frame) I sat her next to me, I threw the dumbbell, I sent her for it. She went over the a-frame, she picked up the dumbbell, she came back to the a-frame and sat at the base of it holding the dumbbell.

I walked up behind her, standing immediately behind her with my feet veed bracing her hind legs. I petted her and gently picked up her front end and placed her front feet on the a-frame. I petted her and braced her until I felt her shift her weight forward into the a-frame and I let go with my hands, but kept my body there to brace her. She didn't move, but she was still holding the dumbbell.

I picked her up again, placing her front feet higher and placing her back feet on the a-frame. Again, I continued to brace her until I again felt her shift her weight. This time when I took my hand off her, she flew up the a-frame, down the other side, came around and executed a beautiful sit front. And she was still holding the dumbbell.

She never again had any problems with the finished exercise.

Wow, I'm not sure there are a lot of dogs who would let you pick them up like that and not drop the dumbell. Interesting.....

I'm still trying to think of a training problem myself...... Would love to hear another!

Yep that is interesting, not sure I would have thought of it. But who knows until your faced with it lol.

Yea, I probably wouldn't have thought of it if I hadn't been there doing it and after exhausting everything else I could think of. It was kinda a momentary idea, and I laughed at myself and then was shocked when it worked. I think maybe the whole problem was with her figuring out that she could keep her balance - figuring out how to adjust her weight - with the dumbbell in her mouth.

Who has the next problem?

I've got one........although I may have tipped my hat to this case before and how I handled it lol.

4 yr old female, would allow a leash to be attached or removed, collar never removed, would enter crate on command.
Would not allow anyone including owners to touch her without attacking with serious mauls and bites.
Vet's refused to even give vacc's, attempts had been unsuccessful, short of a dartgun.
Previous training, from 10 wks of age to 13 months, classes and privates non stop for aggression, methods were very very harsh.
Results: HA, DA, Reactive, Resource guarding, Territorial, couldn't touch her.

I would first suggest a thorough vet check, but that may not be possible. At what age did the aggression begin? What had been done with her up to that point?

Aggression apparently started at purchase at 8 wks of age. Breeder was no help, new owners started attending puppy classes at or around 12 wks. Methods were harsh corrections with choke chain, hanging and helicoptering and alpha rolls to name a few in class. The no touching came after she turned a year old before that they could still handle her.
For the next 3 years she allowed no one to touch her.

Was the aggression something where she would attack out of the blue? Were there clear triggers? If you were on the other side of the room from her would she just leave you be or would she cross the room to attack?

She needs lots of work to rebuild trust. Leaving her pretty much alone but not isolated and gradually forming positive associations with food or toys.

How aggressive was she at 8 weeks? How did it manifest? How severe? I'd be seriously thinking about putting her down, but that would defeat the purpose of this thread

is it safe to assume no bite inhibition? what was her bite history?

I can't answer those questions because I don't know. But I do know that the rest of the litter had to be pts as adults for aggression. And I was also told that the sire and dam were also pts for aggression.
As an adult when I met her, you could not approach her to touch her or she would attack and bite.
If you held a leash in your hands, told her to sit, she would stay for the leash to be put on, but any attempt to touch her while putting on the leash or afterwards, resulted in an attack or bite.
She would not approach people, even looking at her from across the room made her start to growl and hackles coming up. She also would not take a treat, if tossed to her she would snatch it up and run away. She also would not take her meals from hand. No interest in toys, but she was a pro at shredding tennis balls if she could get them.........but she didn't care if the person had them.

Sad to say, if it were my dog, I would pts, and knowing this confirms that...but...

If she's got a lot of food motivation, I would use that. I would get rid of the food bowl and carry her food with me. I would just randomly drop a trail of food. Eventually (hopefully) she would begin to follow me for the food that I dropped. I would also introduce clicker training with the food dropped or tossed for her, let her make the association between click and treat, and then click for anything not aggressive towards people. A glance in the owner's direction, not growling when looked at. Baby steps.

the thing about aggression is that no dog can sustain it forever, so i would have muzzled the dog somehow, placed her in a room with a few people with high values treats. and for a few days all these people would do is dish out food. after a while, try touching her with fake hands and keep feeding the treats. i would allow her to show aggression but like i said she can't sustain it forever. at some point she'll need to try something else. maybe that's taking advantage of the food, or shutting down, but my goodness this sounds tough.

The dog came to be modified in my home, should have said that before.

Do you think that after doing any number of things to get a muzzle on her that she would then eat?
Note: Vets couldn't get a muzzle on her and refused to treat her for anything, its my understanding that several people got bite attempting to do so. Short of putting a noose and choking her, it wasn't going happen.

wow, and this went on for FOUR YEARS?? The owners must've been either REALLY patient, or just REALLY stupid. Considering that they called on you for help, it must be patience.

I think CP's on the right track, that's basically what I was going to say.

The leash thing stands out in my head, though.... did you have to clip it on in any certain way, like always under the chin, over the head, etc.? You could maybe build on that to desensetize her to touch.

Well that would give her the chance to watch you interact with your dogs and see that humans and dogs can have fun together.

how much time do we have? at some point she will be hungry i think. was oral sedation not an option?

Collar was a choke chain, ring hung to the bottom and if you tried to touch her while attaching the leash she would bite and then leap away.
Yes, went on for 4 yrs.............although they could touch her under a year of age.

All the time in the world a month was prepaid. Didn't think of oral sedation at the time. I'll give a hint........I was handling her in less than 4 days (without getting bit ).....