What the kennel property was used for.

Dizzy

Sit! Good dog.
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well the way I see this is like the pot calling the kettle black. You just admitted you were talking about her and that is the long and short of it. See the way I see this is there is no one person that can stand in front of a mirror and say they are not guilty of casting stones nuff said.
I didn't make assumptions about BP.

I was making the point about kennels. It could have been ANY member. It happens that it was those kennels, and that member.

I was making a point about hypocrisy. Not an individual.

I'm not sure what stones I cast there.
 

Dizzy

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I could have gone in blazing - finger pointing and naming and shaming.

But I didn't, becaause that was irrelevent to the point.

Not to mention, that's not me.
 

smkie

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and what in the world does any of that have to do with the mass breeding or adaquate housing? Please keep your personals where they belong on pms and not cloud the issues.
 

Doberluv

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What I can't stand and what I get so sick of is this "political correctness" about EVERYTHING. Is there no right or wrong? Is EVERYTHING a grey area? is everything only depending on whose point of reference you're looking at? "What is "right" for some people may not be "right" for some other people." OH COME ON!!!!!! Are there that many people who can't make a stand for anything anymore? What kind of brains does it take to see that puppy mills and practices which exclude everything that makes breeding dogs moral and healthy are WRONG?????

What is it with people who can't see right in front of their nose? For goodness sake! Take a stand, get some back bone and stop making meely mouth excuses for the mistreatment and haphazard breeding practices of these puppy millers, mass production farms. This tolerance for everything anyone does, no matter how immoral, because they might have a different view point is what's wrong with America.

Remember hearing that line in school? "There is no right or wrong answer." Not everything is a grey area. Not everything is up for interpretation, depending on each individual's frame of reference. Puleeeeze. Does that mean that there should be tolerance for murderers and rapists because to us, what they do is wrong, but from their standpoint it is not? Must we analyze everything to death? Something like this...is either right or wrong, heatlhy and good for dogs or it isn't. There is NO grey area. There shouldn't be any tolerance for all this type of exploitation of dogs. What a lot of non-sensical banter has been going on.

Dizzy, it's all fine and dandy that you have this ability to see both sides to something, to see different view points, to make allowances for certain things. But choose the things you apply that nice quality to. Not everything in life works that way. You need to take a stand on certain issues. This is one issue where I think you're getting bogged down with that political correctness where there is really only one answer to what makes a breeder responsible, caring, cautious and conscientious with how they breed dogs. Puppy mills, breeding mass quatities of dogs with little of the established cautionary measures employed are wrong. Period.
 

houndlove

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So some of you guys may know I'm a practicing temple-going Buddhist. Not that long ago, I talked to my priest about something that had happened the day before at the dog park. I witnessed someone hitting and screaming at their dog in an attempt to train a recall (I think we've all probably seen this). Now, we had just not like 10 minutes before chanted a sutra with lines like "the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness" and "the Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences" and all sorts of stuff about judging, not making distinctions, not using dualistic thought, not speaking, not acting. So, I asked my teacher, I told those people to stop hitting their dog, I was really upset by what they were doing, and it was wrong. How does all this fit together?

The answer is that when you see someone harming their dog, you judge and you speak and you act. Because that is what you do. Because that is right. Because harming an innocent creature is wrong. There's a bunch of Buddhist hoo-hah that goes along with that about what to do next after you judge, speak and act that I won't go in to. But my point is that even people who spend their entire lives developing equanimity would still tell someone harming a dog to STOP.
 

Aussie Red

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What I can't stand and what I get so sick of is this "political correctness" about EVERYTHING. Is there no right or wrong? Is EVERYTHING a grey area? is everything only depending on whose point of reference you're looking at? "What is "right" for some people may not be "right" for some other people." OH COME ON!!!!!! Are there that many people who can't make a stand for anything anymore? What kind of brains does it take to see that puppy mills and practices which exclude everything that makes breeding dogs moral and healthy are WRONG?????

What is it with people who can't see right in front of their nose? For goodness sake! Take a stand, get some back bone and stop making meely mouth excuses for the mistreatment and haphazard breeding practices of these puppy millers, mass production farms. This tolerance for everything anyone does, no matter how immoral, because they might have a different view point is what's wrong with America.

Remember hearing that line in school? "There is no right or wrong answer." Not everything is a grey area. Not everything is up for interpretation, depending on each individual's frame of reference. Puleeeeze. Does that mean that there should be tolerance for murderers and rapists because to us, what they do is wrong, but from their standpoint it is not? Must we analyze everything to death? Something like this...is either right or wrong, heatlhy and good for dogs or it isn't. There is NO grey area. There shouldn't be any tolerance for all this type of exploitation of dogs. What a lot of non-sensical banter has been going on.

Dizzy, it's all fine and dandy that you have this ability to see both sides to something, to see different view points, to make allowances for certain things. But choose the things you apply that nice quality to. Not everything in life works that way. You need to take a stand on certain issues. This is one issue where I think you're getting bogged down with that political correctness where there is really only one answer to what makes a breeder responsible, caring, cautious and conscientious with how they breed dogs. Puppy mills, breeding mass quatities of dogs with little of the established cautionary measures employed are wrong. Period.
Thank you , Thank you a million times over. See I do stand and stand firm on the fact that I daily clean up the messes that these people who breed for profit or mass breed create. I get slammed for saying that I feel no compassion to a person who willingly allows animals to suffer ok so be it. I have no understanding for people who in my opinion sit back and reap monetary reward for breeding dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal to just be sold for pets. The baby cuteness wears off all too quickly and then the one who purchased said pet sees that it has become destructive, eats, poops, needs monies spent on it so said pet must go. There is one thing I know and that is this, we will never run out of dogs or cats or ferrets or any animal that can turn a profit . There will always be an abundance of them in shelters dying because they made someone money. There will always be those who place $$$$$ before all else. $$$ is the new God.
 

Saintgirl

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Originally Posted by Doberluv
What I can't stand and what I get so sick of is this "political correctness" about EVERYTHING. Is there no right or wrong? Is EVERYTHING a grey area? is everything only depending on whose point of reference you're looking at? "What is "right" for some people may not be "right" for some other people." OH COME ON!!!!!! Are there that many people who can't make a stand for anything anymore? What kind of brains does it take to see that puppy mills and practices which exclude everything that makes breeding dogs moral and healthy are WRONG?????

What is it with people who can't see right in front of their nose? For goodness sake! Take a stand, get some back bone and stop making meely mouth excuses for the mistreatment and haphazard breeding practices of these puppy millers, mass production farms. This tolerance for everything anyone does, no matter how immoral, because they might have a different view point is what's wrong with America.

Remember hearing that line in school? "There is no right or wrong answer." Not everything is a grey area. Not everything is up for interpretation, depending on each individual's frame of reference. Puleeeeze. Does that mean that there should be tolerance for murderers and rapists because to us, what they do is wrong, but from their standpoint it is not? Must we analyze everything to death? Something like this...is either right or wrong, heatlhy and good for dogs or it isn't. There is NO grey area. There shouldn't be any tolerance for all this type of exploitation of dogs. What a lot of non-sensical banter has been going on.
CHEERS & CLAPPING & STANDING OVATION!!!!!! Beautifully said!
 

smkie

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that is why i think this is a successful thread. Doberluv that was excellent.
 

Doberluv

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A-w-w...thanks guys. I just saw this thread going round and round, dissecting every little nuance and debating over something that is really very plain. I think most of us feel that but are trying so hard to explain and educate to a brick wall. Some people just don't think that way. Either there's empathy and real concern for an animals' well being, individually and as the bigger picture goes.... or there's not. You can't change temperament. It's what someone comes with.

I'm finally starting to get that after some of those long, drawn out posts in the training forum. Ie: Richling. Eitehr someone has no qualms about hitting their dogs, frightening them... and more.....or they have empathy and couldn't possibly do that.

I guess I'm just mustering up less and less patience for that sort of stuff. But it is hard to stay off these kinds of threads because I think there's always that little glimmer of hope that we can make a difference. And in fact, for others reading, it just might...the people who are on the fence or really haven't given it much thought either way. But to try to argue with the almighty dollar is really a losing battle.
 

IliamnasQuest

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Ahh, someone questioned why only breeders are asked about their qualifications on threads like this. Well, I would be glad to ask EVERYONE on this thread the same question regarding qualifications:

"What kind of breeding operation do you have?"

And you know what would happen? The pet people would all be saying "I don't HAVE a breeding operation". It would be said over and over and be tremendously redundant. There's no NEED to ask them the question because we already know they're not breeding.

When discussing breeders and the quality of their programs (or the lack of quality, as the case may be), they're the only ones that need to get asked about breeding operations. They're the ones producing and raising puppies, and selling those puppies to the public.

I find it not only sad, but kind of frightening that the breeders are the ones saying that they try to keep ethics and morality out of what they do. They're the ones who should have the HIGHEST level of morals and ethics and yet we find them huddled behind legalities. Those legalities are what allows them to justify the bad things they may do. Those legalities are what gives them permission to perhaps breed more than they should, or breed inferior dogs, or breed without health certifications. And they're happy hiding back there behind the laws that permit them to do these things, until someone questions what they're doing - and then the excuses fly.

Dogs everywhere would be in a much better state if breeders showed a bit more concern for the moral/ethical side of breeding, and a little less selfishness. JMHO, of course.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

Doberluv

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Ahh, someone questioned why only breeders are asked about their qualifications on threads like this. Well, I would be glad to ask EVERYONE on this thread the same question regarding qualifications:

"What kind of breeding operation do you have?"

And you know what would happen? The pet people would all be saying "I don't HAVE a breeding operation". It would be said over and over and be tremendously redundant. There's no NEED to ask them the question because we already know they're not breeding.

When discussing breeders and the quality of their programs (or the lack of quality, as the case may be), they're the only ones that need to get asked about breeding operations. They're the ones producing and raising puppies, and selling those puppies to the public.

I find it not only sad, but kind of frightening that the breeders are the ones saying that they try to keep ethics and morality out of what they do. They're the ones who should have the HIGHEST level of morals and ethics and yet we find them huddled behind legalities. Those legalities are what allows them to justify the bad things they may do. Those legalities are what gives them permission to perhaps breed more than they should, or breed inferior dogs, or breed without health certifications. And they're happy hiding back there behind the laws that permit them to do these things, until someone questions what they're doing - and then the excuses fly.

Dogs everywhere would be in a much better state if breeders showed a bit more concern for the moral/ethical side of breeding, and a little less selfishness. JMHO, of course.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
That is so true. I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read that bit about asking everyone of us the same questions. But I just couldn't bother with an answer. I'm glad you got to the meat of it.

Dogs are in a TERRIBLE state as it is. Just because someting is legal doesn't make it all right and good. Hiding behind that for an excuse is just despicable. You're so right.
 

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