Uncle Matty question

Doberluv

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#41
Doberluv, it sounds like your dogs are extremely well conditioned for your house/yard/area where they are used to the distractions around them. What happens if you had to take your dog into a completely foreign environment, one where you couldn't spend time desensitizing them to the new distractions and surroundings?
Dan, these dogs are not only use to my own immediate environment of my property. There are 400 miles of groomed trails at my disposal here. I can hike every day and never use the same place twice in a short time if I want to. I practice on the golf course when people aren't golfing. I practice in front of the little corner store while I go inside for a few things and he waits in a down/stay outside. People may come and go through the doors and he stays on the mat in front of the non-moving door.

And I visit in the Seattle area about 3-4 times a year, taking my Doberman and sometimes my Chi's with me. We walk along a beach (Alki) walk where many, many dogs and people walk. I use a long line and practice him right there on the walk and on the grassy areas alongside. There are dogs and people in abundance walking right past him....4 feet away as he does a down stay. I practice hiding behind a tree in the grassy areas for about 2-3 minutes. We go to Pike Place Market and I keep him on a short leash there. But he is use to crowds or non crowds and lots of different distractions. I practice him when its dark at night when I visit in Seattle so he doesn't freak out about things. Night time is definitely a different thing to dogs.

So, I use a long line sometimes and a short leash when appropriate and lots of off leash practice, where the dog does have a choice. I make sure I've proofed as best I can before trying a command off leash but rather, until that point, use other means (not the cue) to elicit the behavior I want.

My dogs are not perfect, to be sure. They're animals, not robots. There is always a chance for a goof. In fact, in some things they're down right sloppy. I'm not in the least bit interested in showing or competing. But for fun, I do like to get nice, clean heels, sits, fronts etc. I am going to work on that emergency recall thing that Dr2Little posted. I never thought of that.
 

Doberluv

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#42
Was at a class with a friend with this past week who wanted me to come sit in with her. The trainer was demoing with her own dog, very PP, dog did great. We went outside, dog did fine untill the leash came off, and then he wandered off, sniffing the ground...totally oblivious to the owner calling his name. And this was a "trained" dog. The trainers own dog for heaven sake. If he's not able to perform reliably off leash and even a spec of grass gets more attention than his owner...what hope does the rest of the class have?
This is not a well trained dog. Punishment in response to this behavior would not make a well trained dog out of him. Going back to the beginning and going through the process would train him. Somewhere along the way, this trainer skipped something. It is not the fault of positive training methods. It is the fault of the trainer not using them. This dog was not proofed through any sequence. Somewhere, something went wrong. This was not even a case of a high prey motivator type thing. This is a simple recall. That is a horrible example to try to prove a point that positive methods don't work. They work for me just fine. My Doberman has an incredible recall and a solid long down/stay. His heel is precise, his fronts are good...could be a little quicker. So, I'll use the clicker. LOL.
 

Doberluv

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#43
Silverpaws, may I make a recommendation to you? I highly recommend the book, Culture Clash as well as Don't Shoot the Dog, The Power of Positive Training. (and others) These will answer many of your questions and explain how force (ie: placing the dog in the sit position) vs. getting him to figure it out on his own makes a dog a more thinking dog, makes him smarter and better able to learn things in the future. It actually develops more usable brain cells. This has been studied and experimented on. I've read about it somewhere besides in books, but don't ask me to find those things again. LOL. It's even known to be true in humans. The more we exercise our brains, the more brain cells we develop and the more neurons are are grown. Setting a dog up to choose and choose right is better for his brain than pushing his rear into a sit, pulling him with a leash in the direction we want or popping a choke collar to punish him for something.

When we can elicit their participation by discovering what motivates them (it may be something different than treats, it may be the very motivator that is competing with you) ...but in a different way of aquisition....we get a dog who is not forced into a behavior, but who trains himself almost. We get a more reliable response in the future because the training goes deep.

There are a lot of venues where positive methods are used in dog training. So to say that it doesn't work is just plain...... unknowing, I guess.

I've taught my dogs all kinds of things without the use of any force, very little physical manipulation of their body parts, very little punishment, although with some house hold things, I must admit I have used a harsh voice from time to time, (after all, I'm a primate) from obedience to agility, to a few tricks, to good house manners.
 

silverpawz

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#44
In what other (if there are other) situations would you feel it necessary to use a leash correction, a pop of the choke collar and stern voice in order to get the dog more reliable?
In short, if the dog knows a command, but chooses not to do so in favor of being distracted. I may use placement, or I may use a quick leash pop, it really depends on the dog and the situation. This is just telling the dog his choice was wrong. Nothing more. My job then is to help him succeed so he can see what the right choice is, and learn from knowing what actions bring about what responses from me.

This is not a well trained dog. Punishment in response to this behavior would not make a well trained dog out of him.
Ah, but this was a 'well trained dog' he has several obedience titles. Most of which were done off leash in the upper levels. He simply chose to sniff the grass instead of respond to his owner in that situation. He was always allowed to choose. So he did.

Punishment? No. Not what I'm talking about. However I would have simply hooked the leash back on him, backed up a few steps to get him to complete the recall and if he still didn't do so THEN I would have given a gentle leash pop. I won't be ignored.

I would not have drug him back into the house and worked on it later. What matters is how we react IN the situation, THAT is what tells the dog if you are a pushover or if you truly mean what you say.

That is a horrible example to try to prove a point that positive methods don't work.
Not saying they don't work. They work WONDERFULLY for teaching commands. Use them plenty. They are not however, the end all be all of training.
 
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whatszmatter

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#45
That is a horrible example to try to prove a point that positive methods don't work. They work for me just fine. My Doberman has an incredible recall and a solid long down/stay. His heel is precise, his fronts are good...could be a little quicker. So, I'll use the clicker. LOL.
ahh, and my dog(s) trained with prong collars, no collars, e-collars trained under no distractions, gunfire, loose chickens, other dogs, cars, motorcycles on skid pads doing burnouts all have excellent recalls with finishes, precise heeling, solid attention, 15 minute downs easily under heavy distraction, can be sent out or called off an aggressor, can scale walls and jumps, have excellent quickness, springs in their steps, thoughtfulness in their eyes. I take them out and people instantly flock to them and wonder "how" and "where" do you find dogs like that. So what's your point?? I'll continue to challange myself and my dogs using all types of learning, still claim aversives don't train anything, get off the american pet dog training website and read something different for a change. LOL
 

silverpawz

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#46
Silverpaws, may I make a recommendation to you? I highly recommend the book, Culture Clash as well as Don't Shoot the Dog, The Power of Positive Training.
I've read them. Some very valid points are made in each, but I don't agree with everything they say either. I'm not close minded about other ways of training, I enjoy reading about different methods. Doesn't mean I'm going to be an instant convert.

These will answer many of your questions and explain how force (ie: placing the dog in the sit position) vs. getting him to figure it out on his own makes a dog a more thinking dog, makes him smarter and better able to learn things in the future.
If you truly believe that placing a dog into a sit position is FORCE, then...wow, I just don't even know what to say to that. Do not see what the problem is with proper placement. Helps the dog learn faster and does not prevent him from being able to learn more in the future.
 

DanL

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#47
ahh, and my dog(s) trained with prong collars, no collars, e-collars trained under no distractions, gunfire, loose chickens, other dogs, cars, motorcycles on skid pads doing burnouts all have excellent recalls with finishes, precise heeling, solid attention, 15 minute downs easily under heavy distraction, can be sent out or called off an aggressor, can scale walls and jumps, have excellent quickness, springs in their steps, thoughtfulness in their eyes. I take them out and people instantly flock to them and wonder "how" and "where" do you find dogs like that. So what's your point?? I'll continue to challange myself and my dogs using all types of learning, still claim aversives don't train anything, get off the american pet dog training website and read something different for a change. LOL

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:
 

Doberluv

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#48
Titles or not, the dog at that point did not have a reliable recall. So more training is needed. When you talk about the dog "choosing to ignore" you, blowing you off or whatever, this tells me that you're projecting human ways of thinking onto dogs....or anthropomorphizing them. Why would a dog choose to disobey a command? Because there is a competing motivator present which is better than what has been conditioned into him during his reinforcement history. He needs more practice. Just like when a piano student (I'll use that as an example since I'm a pianist) makes a mistake. He may have gotten the note or the measure perfectly before, won contests, but here on this day, he messes up. He may have something else on his mind which is distracting him. He may have a finger nail which has grown too long or something which is hurting. Something very interesting may be happening in the same room.....so he screws up. He can be slapped by the piano teacher or verbally scolded. Yes, it may make him pay better attention and it may also shut him down, make him want to stop playing. Or, the piano teacher can say, "lets start over and this time, lets remove these other things which are distracting you." In other words, with the dog, get him back to a place where the distractions aren't too much for him right now. Go through it again and practice. Everything takes practice. Maybe that dog was trained and won titles. Maybe the trainer got overly confident and stopped working with him enough. All training will regress if it is not practiced. If a dog messes up, I don't consider him as being stubborn, trying to get back at me, blowing me off or any other human thought process. He is simply undertrained in that particular distraction.

I could not go from having my dog do a nice, reliable down/stay in my yard or one other place and expect him to perform so well in other places. I could not expect my dog to come when called by only practicing him at home or a handful of other places with only a few types of distractions. I started easy and worked up in both distractions, duration, distance, all seperately worked on. Coming when called must be paired with something which is always worth it to the dog, better than whatever he is doing at the time. Sure, there are those times when you just can't measure up....like in those high prey situations we talked about. We strive to over come that, but sometimes fail. Sniffing the grass certainly doesn't rate very high in my book of motivator competitors. So, I would say that that dog needs more practice or a refresher course.
 

silverpawz

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#49
When you talk about the dog "choosing to ignore" you, blowing you off or whatever, this tells me that you're projecting human ways of thinking onto dogs....or anthropomorphizing them.
When I say he chooses to ignore, I mean that he's choosing to give his attention to the competing distraction, in turn that means he's also choosing to not obey. Can't have one without the other. Don't need to project human emotions on the dog to explain it.


If a dog messes up, I don't consider him as being stubborn, trying to get back at me, blowing me off or any other human thought process.
Again, neither do I. I simply see it as a dog who is not aware that his must obey regardless of the distraction. Now, if we're talking about a dog in the begining stages of training, then of course I wouldn't correct. Not fair to the dog to do so.

Because there is a competing motivator present which is better than what has been conditioned into him during his reinforcement history.
Bingo. Click - Treat. ;)
Even with the best positive training, and loads of practice, this will happen some day, the dog will find something else more interesting then you.
It's my job as a trainer to tell the dog that he must obey EVEN if there is a competing distraction he'd rather give his attention to. His life could depend on it some day.
 

Doberluv

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#50
It's my job as a trainer to tell the dog that he must obey EVEN if there is a competing distraction he'd rather give his attention to. His life could depend on it some day.
Yes, I agree. It's how we get them to obey which is different. But this is getting old. LOL. I don't want to cause any bad feelings or anything so I'll leave it alone now.
 
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whatszmatter

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#51
He may have gotten the note or the measure perfectly before, won contests, but here on this day, he messes up. He may have something else on his mind which is distracting him. He may have a finger nail which has grown too long or something which is hurting. Something very interesting may be happening in the same room.....so he screws up. He can be slapped by the piano teacher or verbally scolded. Yes, it may make him pay better attention and it may also shut him down, make him want to stop playing.
Very true, which is why its very impt for the handler to pay close attention to his/her dog, scolding or correcting or whatever to the point of shutting down is bad, very bad, and not the point. Clear communication is what's needed, showing what is and isn't not acceptable is the key. Is the student screwing up cause he just doesn't want to pay attention, or is he really having an off day?? No student of piano, guitar, football, mathmatics, science, baseball, life, etc gets to higher levels without some sort of direction. Either by showing, directing, praising, showing when they are screwing up, when they are breaking rules, when they are going down the wrong path as well as pointing out when they are doing right, when they're excelling, when they're doing what's appropriate or expected, and letting them figure somethings out on their own.

Sometimes it's painful, sometimes its stressful, sometimes it's ugly, most times its beautiful, exhillerating and enjoyable. Its a balancing act for sure, and its no different for dogs. WIth certain dogs I work with, I absolutely know when their attention is not on me or their handler and it should be. Is it cause of under training, sometimes, we back up, is it because of something "more" interesting that day?, maybe, does that give them a free pass, not with me. It's amazing to see what one teeny tiny tap with a leash can do. Some dogs need only verbal, some need a prong collar, some need clapping hands, some need an e-collar, but when they are trained, that one tap can bring focus back for the entire session. If the dog is telling me we need to back up, or is it telling me it needs to be pushed at that point, that's how I make my decisions.
 

Doberluv

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#52
Well, I just don't believe in sterness or zapping or yanking whether a dog student or a piano student. That's just not my way of getting what I want.
 
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#53
Obviously I'm going to have to disaggree with that statement. As I haven't ever met a dog trained using NO aversives at all, ever, be truly reliable around high distractions. Knows how to respond in predictable enviroments? :confused: I've never said I use NO aversives. Let's remember, a simple "AHAH", is an aversive after all.
I do not however, use physical aversives or harsh verbals.

Yes. Quite well. Taken out of that enviroment and out into a situation where there are tons of competing distractions...no.What do you think proofing is if not training in different environments? Behaviors don't magically transfer...??

Was at a class with a friend with this past week who wanted me to come sit in with her. The trainer was demoing with her own dog, very PP, dog did great. We went outside, dog did fine untill the leash came off, and then he wandered off, sniffing the ground...totally oblivious to the owner calling his name. And this was a "trained" dog. The trainers own dog for heaven sake. If he's not able to perform reliably off leash and even a spec of grass gets more attention than his owner...what hope does the rest of the class have?
Dog was not "trained":confused: , certainly not proofed but this type of scenario isn't comparable to what is expected with the dogs I train. I can give countless examples of dogs trained with positive punishment who would respond in the same way. It says nothing about the method itself, rather a reflection of poor training skills or at least incomplete proofing. To be fair, you're talking about a trainer that we know nothing about.

He was always allowed to choose. He chose the grass instead. Grabbed him and Hauled him back inside..hmmmm, sounds like more to the story than just a poorly conditioned behavior, muttering about how this was a good example of how dogs can be unpredictable....I tried not to laugh.

Training using a combonation of rewards and fair aversives produces a more reliable dog. Long term as well.




And that is someone projecting their own feelings into the trainging rather than useing what works better for the dog. You don't like using any aversives, so you assume your dog wouldn't respond the way you want...your dog may not think the same way. Have you seen the way dogs interact with each toher? They're very physical. A quick leash pop or proper placement won't crush their spirit....but it may crush yours if it bothers you that much. Comparing the way that dogs react to eachother to the way they react to humans is like comparing domestic canines to wolves...doesn't hold much water anymore. Again, we're not talking about MY dogs alone, how about the 1000's I've trained using both methods? I'm not sure why it's so hard to grasp that I don't use physical aversives because I find my success as a trainer much improved without them....



So I'd still like an answer to what is done when your reward is not better than the distraction. Surely you'll admit that there are dogs who have no interest in treats, or toys...or they do but not enough to rip their attention away from the other dog passing them...when you only have one tool in the tool box, you're not equipt to deal with those situations when they arise. And they do arise.
I have only one tool in the toolbox? Where did that come from? I use many tools, none of them involve pain or fear but I still have many tools (methods of training). You keep bringing up scenarios where desentizing must be done and obviously wasn't, it's the only way to target these problems. How is a yank (pop) going to teach him anything. It is well documented and proven (by me and many other trainers) that ripping their attention away solves nothing. Every dog has a price, it's up to us as trainers to find out what that is. If you find yourself in a situation while training a dog where he shuts down, you've gone to far too fast. Training never starts by hitting the trigger head on...

Desensitized a dog to enormous triggers is no easy task but it can be done, I do it all the time and sometimes it's a pretty big undertaking. It does take consistency and patience, but that's why it works. It's about changing the way the dog percieves the trigger, not adding stress in the presence of the trigger.
Control does not have to come in the form of physical correction either and in fact in the case of a dog passing, I would hope that a leash pop would be a trainers last choice as it would be the least appropriate. I find it strange that these dogs with no motivator in existance other than physical correction, keep popping up in your questions. When I work with these dogs, I don't set them up to fail but rather take my time with re conditioning BEFORE putting them in that position.



How in the world is placing a dog into a sit, teaching him not to think? If anything it is HELPING the dog to succeed. It's showing him exactly what you want and exactly how to get the reward.

Think of it this way, if you were deaf, and someone wanted you to sit in a chair, would you rather they force you to figure it out on your own, or would you be greatful if they simply lead you to the chair and pointed? Personally, I rather have someone show me. We're not talking about deaf dogs and if we were (I have trained both deaf, blind and my own dog was blind and deaf), I would not use physical training either. Positive reinforcement training opens up so many other options and with a little creativity, proper timing, and patience.
 

silverpawz

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#54
We're not talking about deaf dogs and if we were (I have trained both deaf, blind and my own dog was blind and deaf), I would not use physical training either. Positive reinforcement training opens up so many other options and with a little creativity, proper timing, and patience.
Asking a dog to figure out something he cannot verbally understand yet without assistance is like asking a deaf person to hear you. That's the point was tryign to make. I still don't see how placing a dog into a sit can be considered force. It's certainly not harsh. I'm not saying shove the dog into a sit.

Dog was not "trained" , certainly not proofed but this type of scenario isn't comparable to what is expected with the dogs I train.
Just because a dog is not responding does NOT mean the method was applied wrong. It just means that dogs are DOGS and they want to sniff that grass, or make eyes at the cute poodle crossing their path MORE than they may want your reward at that moment.

But of course it is eaiser to simply say the person doing the training did it wrong, than to admit maybe that particular dog needed a different approach.

I use many tools, none of them involve pain or fear
And neither do mine. That's where I think it's hard for you to understand. That someone can use aversives and not create harsh pain or fear.

You keep bringing up scenarios where desentizing must be done and obviously wasn't, it's the only way to target these problems.
Desensitizing is a wonderful tool, use it a lot coupled with other things, but it is not the only way to use to target a problem.
And how exactly DO you plan to so to Deers? Get a herd of them for your backyard so you can practice? (which, may not be such a bad idea...I wonder if it's possible to buy deer somewhere....)
 
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#55
Asking a dog to figure out something he cannot verbally understand yet without assistance is like asking a deaf person to hear you. That's the point was tryign to make. I still don't see how placing a dog into a sit can be considered force. It's certainly not harsh. I'm not saying shove the dog into a sit.
I didn't think that you were shoving a dog into a sit, but I still don't understand the need to place a dog either. I would never ask a dog to do something without showing him what's expected either but I choose capturing, luring and other methods instead of placing and popping so that the dog has a chance to do it on his own. I do build speed and distance as well as duration into every command and find that the most effective way to TEACH a dog to comply.



Just because a dog is not responding does NOT mean the method was applied wrong. It just means that dogs are DOGS and they want to sniff that grass, or make eyes at the cute poodle crossing their path MORE than they may want your reward at that moment.

But of course it is eaiser to simply say the person doing the training did it wrong, than to admit maybe that particular dog needed a different approach.

I agree, the dog needed a different approach, something wasn't done right or compliance wouldn't have been SO lacking. And again, you said yourself that the trainer, obviously frustrated, grabbed the dog and hauled him back inside.....:confused: there's where the difference in training styles is right there. Just not a fair comparison.


And neither do mine. That's where I think it's hard for you to understand. That someone can use aversives and not create harsh pain or fear.
Again, and for the last time as this is really getting stale, I too use (verbal, directional aversives), I just don't feel the need to place or pop a dog into compliance. I don't believe that I ever said that you were cruel, simply that your methods are not void of pain or fear (however moderate you feel they are) and I choose not to use them anymore.
All of the "what if's" won't take me back to my old style of training and I'm not asking you to join me, you have your own style. We do what works for us as trainers and we'll just have to agree to disagree...ONCE AND FOR ALL..PLEASE!




Desensitizing is a wonderful tool, use it a lot coupled with other things, but it is not the only way to use to target a problem.
I agree, it is not the only way and is just one tool but why would I use another way (for a problem that it will work for) that does introduce anything physical if I don't have to? It just doesn't make any sense that I would not use this proven method when applicable, as it is clearly is effective.
You asked what I would do given the scenario that you posted, and I told you what I would do. Now you're asking me why I wouldn't use something else:confused: , I'm genuinly confused.


And how exactly DO you plan to so to Deers? Get a herd of them for your backyard so you can practcie? (which, may not be such a bad idea...I wonder if it's possible to buy deer somewhere....)

Good question. We have tons of wildlife here and this is a problem that I'm confronted with time and time again.
No one can proof for a situation that they have no chance of confronting, in other words..who needs to proof to deer in the city.
On the other hand, if you do live near deer, ducks or any other true problem trigger, you are able to desensitize on leash and safely even though it may take some time. I don't want to start addressing the "what if you encounter a space ship" kind of stuff here. If there is a trigger and you have enough exposure..even somewhat rarely, you can desensitize by controlled exposure. Otherwise, working on an Emergency Recall or keeping the dog safely leashed will work...just in case that space ship lands...;) :)
 

silverpawz

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#56
Well I think it's quite obvious that neither of us is ever going to change our minds. I believe it's not possible to have a truly reliable dog using only PP...you do.

We can go around in circles forever. Both of us probably having equally good points. I have responses for your last post...I don't have the desire to post them, it's just very tiring to keep saying the same thing, I'm sure you must feel the same way. Honestly, it's giving me a headache even chocolate can't fix.

I really don't want there to be hard feelings between us Dr2 perhaps I've come on a bit strong...perhaps we both have. This is a subject that brings up a lot of emotion for the people involved. No one wants to be told that their way is wrong, on either side.

Let's call a truce okay?
 

otch1

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#57
This thread has become a great place for trainers to meet and debate method/technique. Doberluv, I grew up in Madison Park, frequented all of the places you mentioned. Small world!! dr2little and silverpaws, it might be easier for us to understand each others statements if we knew each others area of expertise. I'd like to know what each of our involment is, in dog training. I'll put myself out there first. Started out as veterinary assitant, 24 years ago. I then moved to competition training, starting with own dog, and eventually assisting a very well known trainer in Washington. I also worked for other trainers for several years, did continueing education, was involved with several non-profits. I was the president of local volunteer chapter for Canine Companions for Independance, public speaking, fundraising, in home evaluation of puppy raisers, trips to training center in Santa Rosa and attending graduate training. It was a wonderful group. I was then offered the lease on a kennel in Bothell, for 4 yrs, where I lived full time with my family and taught privates, group classes and ran a 30 day in-house program. After more continueing ed. and training, the lease on kennel expiring as it was slated for commercial development, the property was developed and I was offered the postion as training manager of a 200 dog/capacity, commercial kennel. I worked there training, for 8 years, 12 total trainers and some of the best in the industry, in my opinion. I was very priveleged to run this program. Flyball, agility, conformation and competition obedience training. I specialized in behavioral modification of aggressive dogs, while continueing to teach "Basics and Beyond" and also showing clients dogs in conformation. I managed this program until I was able to afford my own facility, at my home of 8 years as of this December. I still show in conformation as well as doing in-house training. My kennel is commercially licensed, for 25 dogs. I feel very priveleged to do what I love, full time for a living. I have a feeling some of us (trainers) and a few others posting, from the Seattle area, know of each other and it'd be great to meet over coffee someday! Would love to hear how the rest of you got started!
 
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#58
Well I think it's quite obvious that neither of us is ever going to change our minds. I believe it's not possible to have a truly reliable dog using only PP...you do.

We can go around in circles forever. Both of us probably having equally good points. But honestly, it's giving me a headache even chocolate can't fix.

I really don't want there to be hard feelings between us Dr2 perhaps I've come on a bit strong...perhaps we both have. This is subject that brings up a lot of emotion for the people involved. No one wants to be told that their way is wrong, on either side.

Let's call a truce okay?
Hey, Great Idea, I'm all for a fellow chaz member hug....maybe a bit forward ;) but I too think we work for the same ultimate goal and you're right, we're both pretty passionate.
Thanks for extending your hand, not an easy move I'm sure given the past disagreements that we've had....:hail:

Truce it is.....;) :D
 

otch1

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#59
Hi all... I wasn't quick enough in slipping my last post in. Hope everyone considers repsonding. Glad everyone's "made up" lol... and my coffee offer still stands. have a great weekend everyone!
 

silverpawz

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#60
otch, what a great idea!

I had many side jobs working at groomers and kennels, but my first true job was working for another trainer for several years. She ran a dog daycare/boarding/grooming/training center. I began bathing dogs, worked my way up to assiting classes, then teaching them, then training the board and train dogs untill finally I ran the place for her the last year I was there. Trained over half the B&T dogs myself and ran most of the classes, as well as handleing the paperwork side of a business.

My mentor specialized in protection training and while I didn't have the desire to teach that msyelf I did get some valuable experience being a decoy! If you haven't been bitten my a Mal in full out drive mode...you haven't lived! LOL

During that time I also worked at a shelter and trained their 'problem' dogs. Taught me a lot about aggression.

I eventually had a falling out with my mentor. I belived she was too harsh in her methods and she refused to allow any food in the training programs. Don't get me wrong I learned a lot from her, and we always turned out well trained dogs, but I wasn't comfortable with the old school methods she promoted.

So, I struck out on my own. Started my own in-home training biz, that eventually progressed into doing a few B&Ts at my house. Did that for a few years untill I could afford to open my own facility. It was my dream. I had my own dog daycare, training programs..the works.

It only lasted six months, due to a poor location. I made a stupid rookie mistake a took the first building i could afford as opposed to waiting for one with good visability. I had a good client based built up beforehand, but you need new blood to keep the dollars flowing in. And even with referrals that just didn't happen enough to support the extra cost. I was crushed.

In the mean time I was also showing my own dogs in obedience, My two collies both have their UCDXs and CGCs, and the my new pup has his CGC, he's almsot ready to try for a UCD. The other two are working on Utility training now. I was also volunteering with a local rescue group to TT all their dogs and help them make responsible decisions about any aggressive dogs.

At this point, two years after the close of my first DDC, business is better than ever, I'm doing a lot of privates, and by B&Ts are booked about two months in advance. I really hope that one day I can try again and open another DDC. This time I'll be smarter about my location.

So that's my story. I'm sure I left a few things out, but that's the just of it.
 
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