starting a Kennel !
- Thread starter gilles
- Start date
i love dogs especially LGD s CO and CAO s are mainly used here for fighting in the fighting arena, but not well known as pets by regular people. these are really misunderstood breeds. i just love them and want to have many of them lol. why breeding them ? i just love animals and dogs and i think i can do a good job at it. we are a very competent team and we are planning a small kennel so we can have quality time spent with the dogs. profit is good but i am not really concerned about that. other breeders here are doing extremely well and they dont have half of our competence. but there are no CO and CAO kennels , they are mostly GSD, and other smaller breeds. CO and CAO is not a profitable business , so if i wanted to do it for the money i would have chosen other breeds. we might start with Akita, Boerboel too but it is just because they are there and they are good dogs and the owners (who are people in my team) want to breed them anyway...but in the future we will only be LGD oriented.
it is as simple as that! i am still not sure why all this opposition while most of you buy dogs from breeders and puppy mills, while all the chicken you are eating are raised in a dark box and cannot move, while all the beef you are eating are raised in a closed box and injected with all sorts of crap, and so on...go oppose them
it is as simple as that! i am still not sure why all this opposition while most of you buy dogs from breeders and puppy mills, while all the chicken you are eating are raised in a dark box and cannot move, while all the beef you are eating are raised in a closed box and injected with all sorts of crap, and so on...go oppose them
I don't think anyone on here has knowingly bought from a puppymill, few from a kennel like you want to start even. Most breeders most would consider don't even have kennel buildings, their dogs, all of them, live in their house. But I would say most of the dogs on here were re-homes, free to good home dogs, or flat out rescues.
Over here what makes a reputable breeder is more then owning dogs and producing puppies.
-dogs used for breeding are proven to be worthy of being bred, weather that's in the show ring and dog sports, or in the field working for a living.
-dogs used for breeding have all the appropriate health testing, most common are hips, elbows, eyes, ears, vWD, but there are many problems that are breed specific as well. They are proven to be either clear, carriers or afflicted for some thing, other problems are graded. Either way it gives the breeder an idea of which dogs to pair up to produce the next generation.
-for myself I won't buy from a breeder who has dogs who live in kennels. It's a personal choice, but to me dogs are family and family lives inside the house.
Over here what makes a reputable breeder is more then owning dogs and producing puppies.
-dogs used for breeding are proven to be worthy of being bred, weather that's in the show ring and dog sports, or in the field working for a living.
-dogs used for breeding have all the appropriate health testing, most common are hips, elbows, eyes, ears, vWD, but there are many problems that are breed specific as well. They are proven to be either clear, carriers or afflicted for some thing, other problems are graded. Either way it gives the breeder an idea of which dogs to pair up to produce the next generation.
-for myself I won't buy from a breeder who has dogs who live in kennels. It's a personal choice, but to me dogs are family and family lives inside the house.
Health testing I agree is important, kennelling I can be fine with, titles are nice but
a) there is no good title for an LGD that I know of... Testing by an experienced bite work trainer sure.
b) how many trials do you think there are in the Lebanon?
c) show titles on a rustic kind of working dog... Not necessarily bad but often leads in the wrong direction, I'd just as soon breeders not. Not important.
a) there is no good title for an LGD that I know of... Testing by an experienced bite work trainer sure.
b) how many trials do you think there are in the Lebanon?
c) show titles on a rustic kind of working dog... Not necessarily bad but often leads in the wrong direction, I'd just as soon breeders not. Not important.
No, I'm pointing out your complete lack on knowledge that is needed to breed. They haven't been taken into account, because you continue to speak as if you have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't care where you're located. I know people that rescue dogs in Lebanon, I have raised a street dog from Lebanon and placed him successfully. Dogs breed like rabbits there... why not put your time/money/efforts into saving the dogs that are already there?
I don't care where you're located. I know people that rescue dogs in Lebanon, I have raised a street dog from Lebanon and placed him successfully. Dogs breed like rabbits there... why not put your time/money/efforts into saving the dogs that are already there?
Ding ding ding we have a winner. As someone with family from Haiti, and knows people there who breed dogs, I'm just trying to be a bit more realistic.
I didn't read a lot of the thread so bear with me...
Gilles, make sure the dogs you are working with are healthy and if I were you, I would perhaps visit another similar breeder and learn what you can from them (you wouldn't want to make the same mistakes) and go from there. I worked in a shelter with a similar kennel environment and there are A LOT of structural mistakes really commonly made (when it comes to fencing used, drainage, flooring etc...) I would find someone who really knows what they are doing.
ESPECIALLY FLOORING. It's an expensive fix, can really mess with dogs health joints wise, and can be impossible to properly clean/disinfect.
I'm not a breeder so I have no further advice. Learn all you can, make sure the dogs are healthy and well cared for, start small so you don't get in over your head, and make sure those puppies have homes that can handle those big dogs.
Best of luck to both you and the dogs.
I didn't read a lot of the thread so bear with me...
Gilles, make sure the dogs you are working with are healthy and if I were you, I would perhaps visit another similar breeder and learn what you can from them (you wouldn't want to make the same mistakes) and go from there. I worked in a shelter with a similar kennel environment and there are A LOT of structural mistakes really commonly made (when it comes to fencing used, drainage, flooring etc...) I would find someone who really knows what they are doing.
ESPECIALLY FLOORING. It's an expensive fix, can really mess with dogs health joints wise, and can be impossible to properly clean/disinfect.
I'm not a breeder so I have no further advice. Learn all you can, make sure the dogs are healthy and well cared for, start small so you don't get in over your head, and make sure those puppies have homes that can handle those big dogs.
Best of luck to both you and the dogs.
Those are good points. I think proper health testing, and health tested lines are most important here.
Gilles, you have mentioned that there isn't really a market for CO or CAO in Lebanon, or those that are in the market for these breeds use them for fighting. Some things to think about:
Are you willing and able to keep all of the puppies if there are no buyers?
How will you ensure the dogs you produce will not end up in a fighting ring?
How will you prevent your puppy buyers from breeding?
Gilles, you have mentioned that there isn't really a market for CO or CAO in Lebanon, or those that are in the market for these breeds use them for fighting. Some things to think about:
Are you willing and able to keep all of the puppies if there are no buyers?
How will you ensure the dogs you produce will not end up in a fighting ring?
How will you prevent your puppy buyers from breeding?
i might not be the expert in breeding but my team is so u can contact them for more details: Dr. Walid Darwiche , Vet surgeon , and expert in breeding and what comes with it, graduated from France , google him . As for rescuing dogs, i am in contact with many local organizations as i mentioned earlier and already personally rescued many dogs ...and if you want more details and not bragging about it i already gave about 3000 US Dollars as a donations ..so i think i am doing a pretty good job
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thanx, you have good points here, and i already have modified the plans accordingly from reading about other kennels (such as drainage problems, ventilation etc...) we have about 6 civil engineers in my family: Father, brother , son, and wife, 2 cousins lol...so my brother would be the one responsible for the constructions and he even did lots of modifications and raised many points we did not think of , i did my homework and got all the mistakes that could be done in kennel.
but you are right my first sketch was rather simplistic and now everything is well designed: flooring, ventilation, sun exposure, wind circulation and ventilation, access , rainy days, sewage, ..you name it
but you are right my first sketch was rather simplistic and now everything is well designed: flooring, ventilation, sun exposure, wind circulation and ventilation, access , rainy days, sewage, ..you name it
good points here too. It is a small country here and everybody knows everybody, that said: Actually there are many fighting kennels over here using only pitbulls.However there are one Kennel and another wealthy man who import and raise CO and CAO for fighting along with pits and they are very well known. they are not into selling puppies much, they keep their puppies and raise them for fighting as a business. fight bets can go up to hundred thousand dollars over here. They are not approachable and stay rather away from the market. the others are just individuals who have these dogs are very few and they imported them from Russia, Ukraine etc... some are really beautiful and healthy and some are not. but in total they are really a few perhaps 4 or 5 and they mostly live at the border in farms where a good guard dog is needed.
now when selling a puppy to individuals , we are still debating the issue u raised: how can we make sure they will not be breeding them? we are studying this issue and already found few answers, such as a thorough interview with the buyer , his/her background etc...we will impose on them our trainer as a must because this is a very big responsibility as you know, we will investigate the living conditions and so on. we also were thinking of having a written deal on the breeding issue that they cannot breed except by going through us and so on ..neutering is not a solution because the majority will not want a neutered LGD. Other than that we cannot stop it for sure like with any other dog you buy.but again the country is small which is an advantage so control and follow up is easier than other places.
now when selling a puppy to individuals , we are still debating the issue u raised: how can we make sure they will not be breeding them? we are studying this issue and already found few answers, such as a thorough interview with the buyer , his/her background etc...we will impose on them our trainer as a must because this is a very big responsibility as you know, we will investigate the living conditions and so on. we also were thinking of having a written deal on the breeding issue that they cannot breed except by going through us and so on ..neutering is not a solution because the majority will not want a neutered LGD. Other than that we cannot stop it for sure like with any other dog you buy.but again the country is small which is an advantage so control and follow up is easier than other places.
First, I would state my own opinion, based on my own experience, that the overwhelming majority of breeders in North America are, at best, mediocre. What you're proposing could, in all likelihood, fall into the upper half of the breeder quality spectrum here. Even so, that would not make you the kind of "good" breeder which, I think, you'd like to be.
I suspect that the opposition goes back to your initial posting of this thread - that you and your partner are tentatively interested in breeding Caucasian Ovcharka, Central Asian Ovcharka, Akita, Boerboel, Rottweiler, Tibetan Mastiffs, and other rare giant breeds. If you said nothing more than that, from the perspective here, that screams "puppy mill".
As a related example, the very few good Black Russian Terrier breeders I know (amongst the horde of poor breeders) must limit the number of dogs they have. These are not kennel dogs, and to raise, train and maintain these large, powerful, protective dogs in a loving home is a true labour of love. They rarely breed more than, perhaps, a single litter in a year. Most breed less frequently, as one of the biggest problems they confront is finding truly excellent dogs which are worthy of being bred. As has been said, most (purebred) dogs are simply not worth breeding.
Many of the breeds of which you speak are (IMO) potentially far more intense, more "serious" than the BRT. As for myself, I cannot imagine the best and most experienced of breeders taking on such a mammoth task.
There is also a different sensibility with animal lovers here when it comes to the raising and breeding of dogs. At best, what you seem to be proposing, is to raise these dogs in a beautiful, clean, spacious facility. They could receive the finest of food and most comfortable and up to date of amenities - but, as has been suggested a number of times throughout this thread, although this would be an ideal situation for chickens or livestock, it is not for dogs and puppies. It is simply "not enough".
Imagine trying to raise, train and socialize Volka, had he been one of 10 or 20 or 30 dogs you owned - many/most of whom could not be safely housed together. How fulfilled would his life be, constantly waiting for his turn to share of your limited time? And a relationship with any staff you might hire, will simply not be the same as spending time with you and your (his) family.
Another issue raised was a lack of expertise. Although you seem to have available an impressive group of experts in related fields, breeding of a single breed requires a tremendous amount of expertise and dedication. A good breeder can spend an entire lifetime devoted to improving his/her chosen breed and find that a single lifetime had simply not been enough time.
Perhaps this all comes down to defining what a "good breeder" is. For myself, a good breeder only breeds a given litter with the realistically hopeful expectation of improving his/her breed.
I think your resolve is honest. I think your intentions are honourable. And I know that, in the end, regardless of what others might say or think, you will do what you feel is best. However, my concerns are that you will quickly find yourselves in over your heads, and that would spell disaster for the dogs involved; also, the world simply does not need more mediocre puppies.
Hopefully that will, at least in part, explain some of the continued opposition, Gilles. In any event, it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
Best of luck!
I suspect that the opposition goes back to your initial posting of this thread - that you and your partner are tentatively interested in breeding Caucasian Ovcharka, Central Asian Ovcharka, Akita, Boerboel, Rottweiler, Tibetan Mastiffs, and other rare giant breeds. If you said nothing more than that, from the perspective here, that screams "puppy mill".
As a related example, the very few good Black Russian Terrier breeders I know (amongst the horde of poor breeders) must limit the number of dogs they have. These are not kennel dogs, and to raise, train and maintain these large, powerful, protective dogs in a loving home is a true labour of love. They rarely breed more than, perhaps, a single litter in a year. Most breed less frequently, as one of the biggest problems they confront is finding truly excellent dogs which are worthy of being bred. As has been said, most (purebred) dogs are simply not worth breeding.
Many of the breeds of which you speak are (IMO) potentially far more intense, more "serious" than the BRT. As for myself, I cannot imagine the best and most experienced of breeders taking on such a mammoth task.
There is also a different sensibility with animal lovers here when it comes to the raising and breeding of dogs. At best, what you seem to be proposing, is to raise these dogs in a beautiful, clean, spacious facility. They could receive the finest of food and most comfortable and up to date of amenities - but, as has been suggested a number of times throughout this thread, although this would be an ideal situation for chickens or livestock, it is not for dogs and puppies. It is simply "not enough".
Imagine trying to raise, train and socialize Volka, had he been one of 10 or 20 or 30 dogs you owned - many/most of whom could not be safely housed together. How fulfilled would his life be, constantly waiting for his turn to share of your limited time? And a relationship with any staff you might hire, will simply not be the same as spending time with you and your (his) family.
Another issue raised was a lack of expertise. Although you seem to have available an impressive group of experts in related fields, breeding of a single breed requires a tremendous amount of expertise and dedication. A good breeder can spend an entire lifetime devoted to improving his/her chosen breed and find that a single lifetime had simply not been enough time.
Perhaps this all comes down to defining what a "good breeder" is. For myself, a good breeder only breeds a given litter with the realistically hopeful expectation of improving his/her breed.
I think your resolve is honest. I think your intentions are honourable. And I know that, in the end, regardless of what others might say or think, you will do what you feel is best. However, my concerns are that you will quickly find yourselves in over your heads, and that would spell disaster for the dogs involved; also, the world simply does not need more mediocre puppies.
Hopefully that will, at least in part, explain some of the continued opposition, Gilles. In any event, it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
Best of luck!
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thanx Mina you are right about being over our heads with work. this is why now we are just thinking of building the facility but starting with less dogs. we will concentrate on 3 CAOs and 3 COs and one Akita. The owner of the Boerbel is just offering his expertise and would like to join in with his dog and a female but for a limited time and he will be taking care of his dogs that are beloved housepets. We will not start having puppies till at least next year or more , so in the mean time we will be preparing ourselves. As for the dogs we have, i can assure you these are not just dogs , these are our children we will do all what we can to make them very very comfortable and happy. I have the time and the financial means to ensure all that. in the end we have to start somewhere and as we go along we will learn more and more. the important part is that the dogs will be mentally and physically well taken care of as if they are living in a home with families not less! these are LGD s and need space and some time to wander alone in a healthy environment and they will be served! and trained and fed high quality food the same as Volka and loved and all what you think of...
So we will not get any bigger for the next 3 years probably until we are very comfortable with what we have and all is going smooth and fine.
and if it works as planned , give me a call if you are interested in a puppy!
So we will not get any bigger for the next 3 years probably until we are very comfortable with what we have and all is going smooth and fine.
and if it works as planned , give me a call if you are interested in a puppy!