Dog Aggression and Drive....
- Thread starter sillysally
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Just picture it this way. Gameness has less to do with aggression, it is more to do with will power.
You got one fighter who wants to beat the crap out of anything that moves, but once he gets to fighting, the first punch sends him running. Then you got the other fighter who only fights when he has to, and when he does, he will never give up no matter what. Are there aggressive fighters with that will power, sure. Are there fighters without that aggression that will continue fighting no matter what, yes.
Some good posts so far. JRTs are more terrier than most, typical of APBT. But then JRTs are one of the terriers that are still working.
And yes really gamey dogs will be more prone to DA. I don't get what you are trying to get at Tahla. A dog who is willing to engage, not back down, show no fear and be ultimately self confident is going to be the sort of dog who WILL show aggression to a 'rude' dog etc. Some take it that step further.
I think a good part of it is working style. A fila is a BIG dog as are wolfhounds. In the most part the prey is fairly respectful if not fearful of the dogs. The dogs also often have back up in the way their pack mates and have the advantage of open ground.
Take a JRT (for example lol I know more about them than APBT) but the prey is often of comparable size and ferocity. JRTs hunt coons, foxes and badgers (among others) They must go face their quarry in its den alone, in the dark, in very tight quarters. The dog cannot wait for back up, none is coming. Well you start digging if they stop, but they are still alone down there facing teeth to teeth with an upset critter that is more at home underground than the dog.
I would imagine with the APBT history that their working styles had similarities with the JRT's, albeit in a different situation.
And yes really gamey dogs will be more prone to DA. I don't get what you are trying to get at Tahla. A dog who is willing to engage, not back down, show no fear and be ultimately self confident is going to be the sort of dog who WILL show aggression to a 'rude' dog etc. Some take it that step further.
I think a good part of it is working style. A fila is a BIG dog as are wolfhounds. In the most part the prey is fairly respectful if not fearful of the dogs. The dogs also often have back up in the way their pack mates and have the advantage of open ground.
Take a JRT (for example lol I know more about them than APBT) but the prey is often of comparable size and ferocity. JRTs hunt coons, foxes and badgers (among others) They must go face their quarry in its den alone, in the dark, in very tight quarters. The dog cannot wait for back up, none is coming. Well you start digging if they stop, but they are still alone down there facing teeth to teeth with an upset critter that is more at home underground than the dog.
I would imagine with the APBT history that their working styles had similarities with the JRT's, albeit in a different situation.
Actually, Filas historically are meant to deal with animals that are far larger than themselves -- wild cattle, jaguar, bear, larger strains of wild hogs and it's not unusual to find them in tight quarters or an environment that is heavily vegetated. They are willing to go into tight, dark spaces where they don't necessarily know if they can get out any way except by going backward.
You do find that trait of gameness -- although it's rarely referred to by those terms, as they have never been a matched breed, and is typically described as tenacity (or muleheadedness, lol). I believe that having successfully owned Terriers is a better recommendation for a potential Fila owner than owning other Mastiff breeds.
Seeing Kharma take on the electric fence at three months, or the 2200 lb. bull at 5 months was a lesson in gameness. And a good illustration that there's a fine line between "brave" and "foolish" The bulls still defer to her, but she leaves the hot fences alone now.
You do find that trait of gameness -- although it's rarely referred to by those terms, as they have never been a matched breed, and is typically described as tenacity (or muleheadedness, lol). I believe that having successfully owned Terriers is a better recommendation for a potential Fila owner than owning other Mastiff breeds.
Seeing Kharma take on the electric fence at three months, or the 2200 lb. bull at 5 months was a lesson in gameness. And a good illustration that there's a fine line between "brave" and "foolish"
The bulls still defer to her, but she leaves the hot fences alone now.
Over all though not quite the same. Jaguars average 137 pounds. And even in tight quarters its not the same as a tunnel under the ground .
Not saying filas are not formidable but saying the challenges of their hunting is different and therefore you end up with a different style of dog with different breed characteristics.
. Not saying filas are not formidable but saying the challenges of their hunting is different and therefore you end up with a different style of dog with different breed characteristics.
Not quite the same, no, but after all, a Fila size tunnel underground would be a cave :rofl1:
There are stylistic differences. Filas tend to be more devious and stealthy. It's a treat to watch Tallulah and Kharma -- different styles but the same kind of tenacity and focus. And evangelical belief in their own invincibility
There are stylistic differences. Filas tend to be more devious and stealthy. It's a treat to watch Tallulah and Kharma -- different styles but the same kind of tenacity and focus. And evangelical belief in their own invincibility
I think, what Tahla is trying to say, is that you can have a dog who ACTS aggressive, say, on a leash around other dogs, but once you actually put that dog in a ring with another dog, it decides to run away since it now has the "flight" option. And you can have a dog that fights well in the ring and gets along with other dogs outside the ring when the "work" is done because he's a confident dog who doesn't feel the need to put on a threat display. So you can have a dog who appears DA but is not in the least "game", just under confident and reactive.
Not quite the same, no, but after all, a Fila size tunnel underground would be a cave :rofl1:
There are stylistic differences. Filas tend to be more devious and stealthy. It's a treat to watch Tallulah and Kharma -- different styles but the same kind of tenacity and focus. And evangelical belief in their own invincibility
There are stylistic differences. Filas tend to be more devious and stealthy. It's a treat to watch Tallulah and Kharma -- different styles but the same kind of tenacity and focus. And evangelical belief in their own invincibility
What do you call an over-sized Chihuahua named Jose` who bravely took after a black bear and chased that fella off my property? Is that gameness? They say Chi's have terrier like qualities. Of course, I never got to find out what he'd do if that bear would have turned around and swatted at him, besides die. Good thing it was a yearling or a little older and he ran like hell. Of course, I was hollering at Jose` the whole time to come back. I wonder if my Wagnerian voice had anything to do with the bear's continued retreat. LOL.
Lucky?
To call it gameness, the bear would have had to challenge him and he'd have had to sick with it. I would call it a natural protective instinct, perhaps.
Put it this way...
I have four herding dogs. And some stupid wild geese who haven't figured out that I have four herding dogs.
One day the geese were in my yard and I sent Tyr to chase them out. One of the geese walked towards Tyr, his head high, hissing. Tyr turned away and ran back to me. I laughed at Tyr, told him he was the herding dog and sent him back. When he went back, he was pissed and he made sure the geese moved. Game? Not so much. When he turned away and ran back to me, he showed a lack of gameness. Eager to please me? Absolutely.
A few days ago I sent Ares on the geese. One of the geese took flight, hovered a few inches above Ares and circled over him. Ares never lost focus on the goose, never took pressure off the goose and it didn't take long for the goose to high tail it into the safety of the pond. Game? More than Tyr.
To call it gameness, the bear would have had to challenge him and he'd have had to sick with it. I would call it a natural protective instinct, perhaps.
Put it this way...
I have four herding dogs. And some stupid wild geese who haven't figured out that I have four herding dogs.
One day the geese were in my yard and I sent Tyr to chase them out. One of the geese walked towards Tyr, his head high, hissing. Tyr turned away and ran back to me. I laughed at Tyr, told him he was the herding dog and sent him back. When he went back, he was pissed and he made sure the geese moved. Game? Not so much. When he turned away and ran back to me, he showed a lack of gameness. Eager to please me? Absolutely.
A few days ago I sent Ares on the geese. One of the geese took flight, hovered a few inches above Ares and circled over him. Ares never lost focus on the goose, never took pressure off the goose and it didn't take long for the goose to high tail it into the safety of the pond. Game? More than Tyr.
Hahahaha! Elegy!
CP....LOL. Lucky and stupid. Of course, he'd have to not back down to call him gamey. LOL. And he did when I called him to come. It took a couple of tries on my part and a lot of screeching though. I would hate it if he were the type to "stick" with it because he wouldn't last through one swipe from a bear paw. I don't know how many dogs would. Those things are freakin' powerful.
So the question is....is gameness really all it's cracked up to be? I guess it depends on what the dog is going after.:rofl1:
CP....LOL. Lucky and stupid. Of course, he'd have to not back down to call him gamey. LOL. And he did when I called him to come. It took a couple of tries on my part and a lot of screeching though. I would hate it if he were the type to "stick" with it because he wouldn't last through one swipe from a bear paw. I don't know how many dogs would. Those things are freakin' powerful.
So the question is....is gameness really all it's cracked up to be? I guess it depends on what the dog is going after.:rofl1:
Romy, I don't know.
When I think of hounds working in a pack, I tend to think beagles and foxhounds...neither of which actually kills, AFAIK.
I think some of it depends also on the size of the dog and the type of game. There's a reason you see more aggression in cattle dogs than sheepdogs.
I'd love to see an answer to this from someone with more hound experience.
When I think of hounds working in a pack, I tend to think beagles and foxhounds...neither of which actually kills, AFAIK.
I think some of it depends also on the size of the dog and the type of game. There's a reason you see more aggression in cattle dogs than sheepdogs.
I'd love to see an answer to this from someone with more hound experience.
Deerhounds and borzoi are both big game hunters, made for killing deer, wolves, foxes, boar, etc. Usually working in a brace or trio.
When we were looking for a deerhound, every breeder we talked to complained loud and long that the breed was having severe temperament probs as far as DA and same sex DA cropping up. The gene pool was so tight they had nothing to outcross to, but at the same time this crappy trait popped up that goes completely against them being able to function in the field, and unfortunately has become more common over time.
I'd like to hear pop's thoughts on this, because he's worked sighthounds on big game, along with bulls, bullXs, and curs, etc.
sorry it took me so long to get around to this, i took Sonic & Copper (in laws' 9 YO yellow lab) out looking for jacks yesterday and it was a long fruitless day.
first i'm going to cover one or two mistakes on the pit dogs (i think i am the only person here that has actually trained, handled & attended matches).
1. THEY WERE NOT bred to kill other animals & especially not dogs. They WERE bred to NOT QUIT A FIGHT (which is also the definition of gameness and so cannot HONESTLY be tested any other way and only a few animals will fight long & hard like two game dogs). This gameness comes from a high level of intelligence (enough to foresee outlasting the other dog to win) and so they can be trained to other activities. The gameness, intelligence & athleticism allowed the pit bulldogs to excell in other venues like the rat & badger pits and in modern hog catching & weight pull.
2. DA & gameness are not directly related (although they are often associated), there were infact plenty of old gamedogs that were ice cold until you dropped them in the box. now since the pitbulldogs came from mixing game terriers & game bulldogs that were used to fight OTHER animals (sometimes in groups) a lot of the resulting dogs were cold and in order to reduce litter waste (nonworking dogs from a working litter) game dogs w/ a higher willingness to engage were bred from and as a side effect a higher level of DA developed in the breed (s). also when dogs other than the bull & terriers were used in the box they tended to be both game & DA (for example a few boxers here in between WWI & WWII and a retreiver in britain in the 1880s had good records & were bred from). chalking it up to "training or how they're raised" is BS, it is firmly planted in the genes. it is common in ALL breeds developed specifically for dog fighting shar pei, akita (yes i know about the bear hunting but for the last century for every hunting akita there were 5 fighters), tosa, gull terr, bully kutta, presa canario and every line/breed of bull & terrier all have higher levels DA than other types of dogs, including some that routinely fight strange or wandering dogs like LGDs & curs.
Romy
the BMC, catahoula & to a lesser extent the Plott all have bad reputations among houndsmen as being DA. IMO the reality is that they don't take crap from other dogs and tend to finish the fights the other dogs start. I know several bear doggers that don't realize their dogs are DA and just think they somehow keep getting on "bad bears." somehow they manage to miss the fact that the bites on the dogs are too small to come from a 250 or 300# bear. IME treeing walkers are the worst for DA, but that comes from the aformentioned nimrods breeding their "tough bear dogs."
now i have seen hog dogs i would call game but i don't think hogs in general are good measures of gameness, nor are most wild animals. here are the animals i think could most consistantly test a dogs gameness (assuming comparable size) on a wild hunt, otter, badger, groundhog, nutria, beaver, coon & maybe coyotes & bobcat.
i haven't heard of a lot of DA in sighthounds (in fact i only know of one guy that seems to have a problem w/ it in his line).
sighthounds & curs (and hunting bull & mastiff breeds) are meat dogs bred for subsistance first & sport later. scenthounds originated purely for sport and so killing dogs were not desirable. in NA, SA & Africa where they are used for predator control scenthounds w/a willingness & even desire to kill have become more common, even predominant in some areas.
first i'm going to cover one or two mistakes on the pit dogs (i think i am the only person here that has actually trained, handled & attended matches).
1. THEY WERE NOT bred to kill other animals & especially not dogs. They WERE bred to NOT QUIT A FIGHT (which is also the definition of gameness and so cannot HONESTLY be tested any other way and only a few animals will fight long & hard like two game dogs). This gameness comes from a high level of intelligence (enough to foresee outlasting the other dog to win) and so they can be trained to other activities. The gameness, intelligence & athleticism allowed the pit bulldogs to excell in other venues like the rat & badger pits and in modern hog catching & weight pull.
2. DA & gameness are not directly related (although they are often associated), there were infact plenty of old gamedogs that were ice cold until you dropped them in the box. now since the pitbulldogs came from mixing game terriers & game bulldogs that were used to fight OTHER animals (sometimes in groups) a lot of the resulting dogs were cold and in order to reduce litter waste (nonworking dogs from a working litter) game dogs w/ a higher willingness to engage were bred from and as a side effect a higher level of DA developed in the breed (s). also when dogs other than the bull & terriers were used in the box they tended to be both game & DA (for example a few boxers here in between WWI & WWII and a retreiver in britain in the 1880s had good records & were bred from). chalking it up to "training or how they're raised" is BS, it is firmly planted in the genes. it is common in ALL breeds developed specifically for dog fighting shar pei, akita (yes i know about the bear hunting but for the last century for every hunting akita there were 5 fighters), tosa, gull terr, bully kutta, presa canario and every line/breed of bull & terrier all have higher levels DA than other types of dogs, including some that routinely fight strange or wandering dogs like LGDs & curs.
Romy
the BMC, catahoula & to a lesser extent the Plott all have bad reputations among houndsmen as being DA. IMO the reality is that they don't take crap from other dogs and tend to finish the fights the other dogs start. I know several bear doggers that don't realize their dogs are DA and just think they somehow keep getting on "bad bears." somehow they manage to miss the fact that the bites on the dogs are too small to come from a 250 or 300# bear. IME treeing walkers are the worst for DA, but that comes from the aformentioned nimrods breeding their "tough bear dogs."
now i have seen hog dogs i would call game but i don't think hogs in general are good measures of gameness, nor are most wild animals. here are the animals i think could most consistantly test a dogs gameness (assuming comparable size) on a wild hunt, otter, badger, groundhog, nutria, beaver, coon & maybe coyotes & bobcat.
i haven't heard of a lot of DA in sighthounds (in fact i only know of one guy that seems to have a problem w/ it in his line).
sighthounds & curs (and hunting bull & mastiff breeds) are meat dogs bred for subsistance first & sport later. scenthounds originated purely for sport and so killing dogs were not desirable. in NA, SA & Africa where they are used for predator control scenthounds w/a willingness & even desire to kill have become more common, even predominant in some areas.