Breeding for Performance Sports

That is what the thread is about...CHANGING a breed to enhance, and ONLY focus on a performance temperament...at the exclusion of original purpose, temperament, and conformation. That is what I thought, at least.


Is that something you agree with? After all, the breed is still "changed"...in both cases...from what it's original founders intended. given strain might even at some point...NOT be able to serve it's original purpose, or change in some significant way conformationally (for ex become smaller, or lighter boned, or more angulated, or longer of body), because of such breeding specialization.

BTW I did not think the OP meant hunting and original purpose in Performance but rather...agility, OB, Flyball, etc...

Could they clarify?

Flyball dogs scare me. How is it from hunting dogs? I'll admit, I've only watched a few times, but what thinking does it need? It looks like dogs run for a ball and run back... how often do they train?

The hunting dog is not in a ring, it is offleash, near roads, it needs to stay within gun range (flushers) or hold a point for 5 minutes while the hunter catches up. Right there is a need for balance. The dog must want to find the birds, but it must also be able to stop and control its range, while staying out of the road.

Bird dogs can have very high energy, and some of them are pretty bad in the house, but most can settle down in the house until it is time to hunt. Lab puppies aren't for many homes, but a grown Lab has been bred for living with the family from the beginning.

They kinda scare me too psy...they seem quite high energy and focused.
This is why I was asking for clarification on what Performance was being discussed...but I think from reading the first post...they did mean to EXCLUDE hunting and herding and original purposes from the Performance group.

I think people need to remember we're not talking work we're talking sport.

Field labs DO have their problems, though. (I saw them mentioned earlier) It depends on the breeder and what type of work/trial they're breeding for. I'd know, we had a field lab before. I'd take a nicely bred field lab over a bench dog any day but there are field bred dogs bred especially for trials that are what I consider horribly wrong in both looks and temperament (neurotic). At least in that breed the extremes can and do go both ways.

People who are in highly split breeds need to remember not all breeds are the same way. Things vary between breeds. Those of us in breeds that aren't split would like to keep it that way.

A lot of people get into this knee jerk reaction of conformation = bad, and don't really look at the big picture. Each breed is in a very different place... Take each breed as its own. think of its purpose and what it is used for today and then decide what you believe is the best type of breeding program for that breed. What defines the breed and how do you go about making sure that remains in the lines?

I honestly don't have much of a problem with people breeding dogs for work/conformation/sport whatever but they need to be honest. If you're breeding for ______ say so and acknowledge what you're losing. In a world full of people breeding with absolutely NO plan or reason, I see little reason to harp on someone who is placing their pups in good homes and health testing and breeding for a reason. Once again so long as they're honest. Though, I'd much rather see people breed new breeds for these purposes rather than change existing ones. (Or at least rename them!)

I'd much rather live with a conformation bred BC than a flyball bred one. Both dogs you can argue are well away from the origins of the breed. I'm really interested in getting a BC actually in the next few years. Probably rescue, if not it'd be a working bred pup for sure, but that's besides the point...

I used to hate border collies. Do you want to know why? It was because every one I had been around was neurotic off the wall. All were performance/pet bred dogs. Over the top drive with no stop is not correct even if these dogs are less flashy than conformation dogs. Conformation dogs can be lacking in drive but at least they tend to be easier to place...

Obedience and agility don't realy mean too terribly much unless you're breeding a new type specifically for that or looking at more than one aspect of that.

Ideally every breeder could balance everything perfectly but it doesn't work that way.

I read the OP as talking about sports like obedience, agility, flyball, etc. Things that aren't limited to one breed or a way to really test a dog as compared to its original purpose.

Like breeding Border Collies for flyball as opposed to breeding them for conformation or working for an example.

Actually I lived in Germany for well over a decade. And did a significant amount of traveling on business throughout "Europe." I recall vividly being at a plant in Birmingham (UK, not Alabama) and hearing one of employes talk about going to visit "Europe." This I suppose explains why the UK is still using the £ while "Europe" has a common currency, perhaps you've heard of it, it's called the Euro (€).

And I didn't realize that "kabillion" means "27," I'll have to remember that.

I already posted a massive shpeal about Flyball, in the BC breeder thread... but....

I don't really see WHY Flyball dogs would scare you. Have you ever been to a tournament, and actually met any of the dogs? Or have you simply seen the races, televised or whatever?

The races are a small part of Flyball. Miniscule. The dogs might race 4 times a day, for 2-3 days at a large tournament. There are 3 heats per race; each heat lasting a few minutes total. There will be several hours of breaks in between races, in which the dogs hang out in crates and x-pens, go on walks, play in baby pools, and socialize with other dogs. If EVERY ONE of these dogs was hyper, constantly go-go-go, and neurotic, they would be extremely annoying and over-whelmed in a tournament environment. The owners intentionally hype their dogs up before each race, but the dogs are not hyped up through out the entire day.

Most teams practice once a week, for a few hours. We practice every Saturday during the summer/fall/spring months, with occasional demonstrations here and there. The majority of the time is spent doing a variety of exercises; long-distance recalls with distractions, obedience work, passing exercises, a bunch of games with the dogs, some box work, etc. Actually, we spend the majority of the time talking and watching our dogs play. It isn't just "run over the jumps, get the ball, run back again"... there is a lot that goes into training a dog for Flyball. Teaching a dog to take the jumps every time alone takes at least a few weeks. Teaching a dog to TRIGGER the box, let alone do a swimmer's turn (which is faster and safer), can take weeks or months. Gonzo was scared of the box at first, and it took a good 6 months to get him to consistently trigger it. Timing a run perfectly, so that the dog crosses the start line exactly at the green light, and timing perfect passes, is practically an art form. It takes A LOT of practice, A LOT of dedication, and a SERIOUS bond with your dog.

Flyball is more a social event than anything. Dogs get to meet and greet, and so do people. There are tons of awesome booths at tournaments, raffles, prizes, non-Flyball-related games, and you become very close with your team. I actually prefer the social aspect of Flyball way over Agility; it isn't anywhere near as close-knit.

What I don't get is all of the malice towards Border Collies in dog sports... I mean, as it is assumed, "bred for dog sports". Everyone who says all of the neurotic BCs they have met have been performance bred, did you specifically ASK the owner if the dog was bred for performance, from performance dogs? Or did you just assume? Did you encounter the dogs in their down-time, or when they were competing? Did you ever meet these "performance bred" dogs in a home environment? Are "performance" dogs NOT pets, as well? I just don't get it... I mean... there are some breeders out there breeding BCs with crazy energy, but performance dogs are not "performing" day and night! I'm sure even the most competitive owners appreciate a dog who can relax at home, too.

I'm not trying to imply that I approve of breeding Border Collies for "performance" - I don't! But, the majority of all of the Flyball BCs I knew, were indeed from 100% working lines. And they were very sweet, chill dogs when they weren't doing their "work".

People who tout agility/flyball titles as proof of a dog's "breedability" scare me. To me, there is nothing about those titles that set them apart from a billion other dogs...almost any dog can win a title in those venues. It's why they're open to every dog out there. There's nothing specialized. You need a dog that isn't lame all around and has a little bit of brain. (nothing against agility itself, I think it's quite fun and am getting back into it shortly)

This is becoming a big thing in Aussies, breeding for agility. Yes, granted, Aussies were the original Kings of Agility before the BC exploded into popularity, but at that time it was still a fun hobby, something else to do, not THE reason for breeding a litter. Now in addition to the "Goldens in merle coats" we've got bouncing around the show ring, there are those who are amping up the energy without bringing the brains along with it.

A good solid working-line Aussie IS the perfect performance dog. The way they're put together and what they were originally bred for means that they can excell in anything from flyball, Rally, agility, etc. They've got the total package and I wish people would keep to that.

True. My puppymill b*tch is ranked as the 5th or 6th american cocker in the AAC.. We've been smoking the competition. She's from some really skeazy breeding, but has 3 titles from less than a year of trialling.

I've heard some flyball people lament that they spayed/neutered their dogs of similar crappy breeding, as they now have flyball titles.. Wonderful..

I want to see a balanced dog. I'm looking at teaching Smudge how to hunt, as I'm a little sour on conformation right now... sure performance titles would eb nice too. But As a cocker, hunting ability is something that would make me prouder.

I'm really with Zoom. If you HAVE flyball and agility titles, then great, but I really don't think that's a good reason to breed FOR.

There's a difference in breeding dogs that CAN do sports and then breeding a dog specifially FOR sports.

If the dog can perform the original purpose and the temperament is sound and he is structurally sound, he should be capable of obedience, agility, flyball, etc.

True for the most part, but if I'm looking for a corgi to do agility with, I prefer to see agility titles in the bloodlines. It's not the only thing I look for, and I would still consider a dog without agility titles in his ancestry, but a lot of good corgis don't quite get their toes off the ground high enough to clear the jumps.

I don't see that as an issue of breeding for sport vs work. I see it as an issue of breeders who don't know how to select for the right temperament and drives. Neurotic behaviors can manifest as play/chase, which an undereducated person might confuse with prey drive. Hyperactivity can be confused with energy.

A lot of temperament faults can be masked when doing sport while the dog would crumble under real life working conditions, but in the end a poor temperament is still a poor temperament whether you're breeding sport dogs, working dogs, pets or conformation dogs.

Not all breeders have the means to utilize their dog as a working dog. There are many excellent breeders of herding dogs who don't live on acres of land with sheep and cows. There are breeders of GSD's and malinois who aren't in law enforcement and don't live in a high crime area, and their dogs don't undergo day-to-day work as a protection dog, but by understanding temperaments and drives and by selecting for the necessary qualities they are very much capable of producing excellent working dogs.

Also, if the buyers understood better what to look for when selecting a breeder and a puppy, or if they enlisted the help of professionals who know what to look for, the breeders who routinely breed poor temperaments would eventually quit because no one would be buying from them anymore.

There are temperament traits that are very much undesirable regardless of the breed or the purpose. While a JRT is certainly going to be less biddable than a BC, both breeds have stable temperaments. It's then a matter of the breeders to not sell puppies to someone who isn't equipped to handle that puppy and for buyers to not buy puppies that they aren't equipped to handle.

:hail::hail::hail:

:hail: :hail:

As far as things like breeding borderjacks, pit/JRTs, border/pits for flyball, I used to be completely against it because I thought it was a huge money making scheme producing neurotic dogs. But from talking to people with borderjacks and being around them, I really don't have much of a problem with it anymore. It is EXTREMELY hard (from what I hear) to get a borderjack if you aren't established in a dogsport, and they aren't churning out litter after litter like many of the designer breeds. I would probably prefer that these people get a dog from a shelter, and I don't think I'd ever get a borderjack, but I definitally understand it more now.

As someone who's breed's original purpose is now illegal, I really wish more people would breed for performance sports over the show ring, or worse, what they think these dogs should look like.

No matter what you breed for, the total dog must be considered. Breeding for one trait, ANY single trait leads a breed down a bad road. I believe conformation fits the function. Working is most impt especially for breeds bred to work.

But breeding a BC just to be fast, and not taking into consideration nerve and focus gets you crazy fast dogs that are nuerotic for a ball, and without it have no attention span, no focus no nerves, etc.

That's just a single simple example. You can get away with short sighted breeding for a while, but sooner or later, not paying attention to the entire dog, temperment, health drive, etc the breed suffers, some more than others. Just my .02

Some dog breeds like the APBT can not do their original purpose. A lot of APBT beeders are breeding for agilty so they can hopefully keep the breed alive.

There is an alternative for that. Buy a breed that does great at being a pet, not one who is high drive and you can't handle. Some people prefer to keep their active breeds active.

If its a social sport, why do we need dogs bred for it? Go find a dog from the shelter with a nice ball drive. Since people are breeding dogs specifically for it, at least to them, its a bit more than a social event to them.

As for Trial Labs... thats not hunting either. A hunting dog book will typically warn the reader for getting a Trial Lab for a hunting dog; almost as strongly as they warn against Show- Only Labs. A lot of the Pointer trials are run from horseback, which is great if you have giant fields and a horse, but not so good for most people.

Note that... I never said Border Collies, or any breed, should be bred only for dog sports. It was more of a response to the posts that state that Flyball ruins breeds, Flyball is a sport for neurotic crazy dogs, etc. I have seen people with neurotic dogs, and they have failed miserably at Flyball, because it DOES take a large amount of control and it does take a dog that is highly intuned to their owner. Even though it IS largely a social event, that does not mean it doesn't test the intelligence, drive and biddability of the dogs. It does. It's just that, from the outside, all that an onlooker sees is the actual races... not the months, and even years, of training and partnership that the dog and owner go through to get to a competitive level.

And, for those dogs who do become obsessive and neurotic, how does one KNOW that it is a product of the dog's breeding? Does how the dog was raised and how the owner handles the dog count for nothing? Personally, I do feel that "off switches" in Border Collies, and in most any breed, are more a product of nurture than nature.

Again... I don't believe any BC should be bred unless it is a skilled, balanced working dog. But if the dogs are titled in dog sports as well, that gives them extra brownie points, to me.