inbred dogs???

Inbreeding is a common practice -- it can have it's good sides and downsides. It was an awesome thing to do way back when. Back then they did it to improve working ability. They wouldn't inbreed a dog, let alone breed or even keep it if it had health problems. Back then natural selection did it's work anyways, no chance to breed. So unhealthy dogs could not inbreed. It was a great way of establishing breeds and improving ability.

However, nowadays I question most people's choice to inbreed, as it's usually done for establishing a certain look or "type," and it can affect the health of the dog. Inbreeding should only be done when someone knows every little nook and cranny of the dog's 5 or 6 generation pedigree. My friend had a dog that was heavily linebred on one dog -- this dog itself didn't have any problems, and was the #1 stud in North America -- heavily bred to --but every puppy in the litter ended up with an unknown blood immune disease -- three of them ended up dying early, one lived ubntil 15 on several medications -- but not before they produced more unhealthy puppies from outcrosses.

Linebreeding is less likely to cause problems, but you still need to be careful. I'm doing a (half) uncle to (half) niece breeding (not for another 5-6 years). It' a linebreeding on the most well-tempered Belgian I've ever met. I've researched (and am continuing to research) any problems in the line. It can be dangerous to double your chances of something bad popping up

I've been reading up on this a LOT lately as I've been researching my girl's pedigree and seeing who she is linebred on.

There are varying beliefs as to what constitutes a linebreeding as opposed to inbreeding. Technically, it's all inbreeding - you're breeding two dogs of close relation. Some people consider it inbreeding if it's full brother/sister, mother to son, father to daughter, etc. Others consider inbreeding to include half-siblings and grandfather/granddaughter types of breeding. But most people into breeding seem to consider it linebreeding if it's at least half-sibling or farther apart.

One site I read basically said "if it worked, it's linebreeding .. if it didn't, it's inbreeding" .. *LOL* .. that was tongue in cheek, I believe!

Breeding dogs that are closely related doesn't result in immediate retardation, etc. (as is commonly joked about in hillbilly-type jokes). Most well-known breeders use linebreeding as a means to "stamp" their lines with specific traits. If you look back in pedigrees (I have Khana's pedigree back 40+ generations in places) you'll often see a lot of linebreeding. Khana is linebred on one male on her sire's side, another male on her dam's side. Her breeder and I have discussed possibly doing a linebreeding with her with a half-sibling. I don't know that we will, but one of the things that has to be fully assessed is every fault or weakness that your dog may have. Khana is very nice, but she has a few things that are not perfect (of course) - and I wouldn't want to do a linebreeding if those same imperfections were in the male because that only increases the chance that the imperfections will get worse. On the other hand, if both dogs have certain good traits, those will become even stronger.

I'm still learning .. always will be .. it's very interesting to read up on this kind of stuff and see why and how breeders build their lines into a certain set of traits.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I agree with your way of seeing this. There is a Co-efficiency that you can use to help you with line breeding or inbreeding. My question is why? Why inbreed or even line breed when there are so many choices out there? (unless your breed is rare)
Now with any line or lines you have with any stud or bitch you should know what those lines produce and not only produce alone but together.This is taking in consideration of all dogs in the pedigree and what they have produced consistantly.
I really see no reason to inbreed. Your chances of producing a pup you desire is just as good with cross breeding and knowing the lines well enough to predict what you will get in that litter. To me its much safer. A less chance of a genetically wrong litter. Which with any litter however bred is a hit or miss but why take the risk of doubling up your chances of genetic problems. Which is what you do when inbreeding. Maybe even triple. Not sure I will have to call a few veternarian colleges about this to confirm. My understanding of genetics leaves me to believe this way. Since I do not inbreed and never plan to I will make sure by calling and asking a few vet colleges I am in contact with already. Its nice to know the professors
A very wise and very experienced breeder once told me. If you can pair up the right pedigree along with the strenghts and weaknesses of both sides of the pedigree including the parents, grandparents, half siblings, ect... you will get a great bunch of puppies.
I researched this and came to the realization with my breed that I have many options. Titles dont always tell the whole story. Any seasoned breeder knows this. I am new and have done tons of research, plenty of questioning, and tons of gathering information from other breeders and veterinary colleges. I personally have called and kept in contact with 4 veterinary colleges and several professional breeders of labradors. I question alot. I want to get the information and evaluate it myself. Its not that I dont trust people but that I know people are often subjective and not objective. The more people I know the more information I gather. The day I stop learning is the day I die. Which is true for any breeder who loves thier breed/breeds. To me I will research offspring and siblings/half siblings ect. I will personally call people who not only have had good success with that dog/s but unknown success or failure as well. I will go as far as 4- 5 generations if I can. I want to know from the owners/ others who have seen these dogs/offspring perform before tell me about them and all thier quirks good or bad.
With labs there are alot of opinions and personal experiences coupled with some paranoia. For me its best to get the information straight from the horses mouth. Whether is a dog who died 10 yrs ago or one who is still competing. Then with offspring to do the same thing. Talk to the owners and gather information. Still you are relying on people. What one person views as a good thing another will view it as a bad thing. Opinons. Which is why its best to get all the information you can before making assumptions.
Essentially what it comes down to is knowing each individual dog in your dogs pedigree to the best of your ability, and the studs pedigree as well. Couple that together. Research and see if there has been any success with a similar breeding. Not only should the Dam or bitch compliment the stud but the backround dogs behind both of stud and bitch should compliment eachother. Many breeders say that its only the dogs in your dogs 3 generation pedigree. Mom, dad, grandparents who play the biggest part in your dog or pup and what they will be like. That has been very true for me and many other pro breeders.
There is alot to consider when breeding. Inbreeding, Linebreeding and outcrossing. I took about 6 mo of research before I put a deposit on a female. I waited for a year to get her. She ended up having retinal displaysia. I paid 1200 for her. Why am I telling this? Because even IF you do the research and pick a awsome breeding there is NO GUARANTEES that pup will be perfect. No breeder or even a genetic scientist can guarantee anything.
You can look at a breeding that has no appearent problems and get a pup who has a genetic defect. Its the nature of the beast. Breeders are not GOD.
Line breeding, Out crossing, and inbreeding will not free a breed or any breed from inherent defects. You can do your best to eliminate it but no one is GOD.
This is the hard truth about breeding and being a breeder. You plan and hope for the best. Theres no guarantee.
Examples...... Maybe niether one of the lines of the parents have produced a pup with allergies. But you get a pup who is highly allergic to something in its diet. Or even mildlly allergic. Its genetics no one can controll it completely.
Maybe you get a pup out of a litter who has HD and all the rest of the litter has a OFA reading of good or better. You researched both parents line extensively and felt positive about this breeding. Again its genetics no matter what route you go. Whether it be inbreeding, Line breeding, Or cross breeding. Its still genetics.

Inbreeding doesn't automatically equal "deformed idiot pup", but it does greatly increase the risk of problems that would normally be very rare. Let's say Dog A has a recessive trait for a very rare ear problem. He passes it along to two of his puppies, although no one knows it because the problem's recessive in them too. If the puppies are bred to unrelated dogs when they grow up, it's unlikely that any of their puppies will exhibit the ear problem. But if they're bred to EACH OTHER, the odds become much higher that some of their puppies WILL exhibit the ear problem . . . Normally rare recessive genes are being doubled up.

Yes interbreeding is just that, mother to son, daughter to father. Line breeding is, generally goes 2 -3 generations on either side. So lets put it into perspective:

Jenna: has Renie as far back as 3 generations. So it would be Jenna, jas, las, then you find Renie;

Then on males side you find, Sunny, bunny then find Renie. You have done a perfect line breeding! Now you can do a 2 generation secter, or a 5-5 secter. Which ever works best. But we have to remember you can not at anytime bring these lines back together, for another 4 to 6 generations. It is about improving the breeds, but being responsible about it!

Mother to son, father to daughter.

is there any way to tell if an animal is inbred by its appearance and temperment?

You would need to know everything there is to know about the pedigree in order to come to an understanding of if a breeding as you mention above would be more likely to be beneficial or harmful.

How the breeding would turn out can be different with each pairing depending on what is in the pedigree and the genetic makeup of the dogs in question.

No, there is no way to tell by looking at an animal if it's inbred.

Inbreeding

Short story; I have a horse (TACO) that is a mother to son breeding; intentional.

Taco has impaired liver function.

Mickey - His dam had (now deceased) evidence of impaired liver function (potty gut, poor hair coat and was a bad doer in the fall/winter months). She was unable to metabolize cured grass; needed fresh grass to prosper. If you gave her extra supplements she did o.k.

Ace - His sire (and 1/2 brother) did not exhibit signs of a liver problem. No evidence whatsoever; fat sassy all year round.

Taco who has 2 doses of Mickey (mother and grandmother) has seriously impaired liver function. So much so that a vet told me he wouldn't waste his time with this horse (and this vet refuses to comment on much; so this was a pretty bald statement). Taco is what horse people refer to as "weedy" looking. He is very thin, with a big gut and rib cage showing, he takes a long time to muscle up and is very small compared to his mother and father. Taco is fine now; we keep him on higher quality hay, cracked corn and rolled oats with some supplementation with Vit C and he seems to do all right; he is a much better doer when the grass is green though.

Taco also had a full brother who died around weaning time.

If you are going to inbreed I cannot stress strongly enough that you need to know everything that is going on with these animals - make sure both parents have had every health test you can possibly put on a dog and hopefully farther back you have health tests too. One foal a year with a problem is not astronomical; 12 pups with a litany of problems is huge.

To me that's way to close , Purdue . When a dog sitter let my in heat female breed with one of my males , I didn't know if it was Father/daughter or 1/2 brother/1/2 sister . I couldn't take the chance and aborted the litter.

Yes that is total insanity!:spam: Anyone that breeds that close should be Shot! Especially knowing there are health issues. What is the world coming too. :yikes:

I don't know anything about breeding, but it should only be done by experienced successful breeders right? It should not be done by t hose who don't know what they are doing, right?

That would seem to make sense, wouldn't it? The difference in the pedigree world is that so many modern breeds originate from such a tiny pool of genes in the first place (a single pair of dogs in some cases!) that mathematically/genetically speaking, line-breeding is negligibly different from in-breeding. Some say that line-breeding is in fact just a type of in-breeding. These articles explain it quite well:
http://www.netpets.org/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html
http://netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/assort.html

As a result, estimates are that 1 in 4 AKC registered dogs has a significant genetic problem. That's why it's such an art for breeders to avoid the many genetic pitfalls of breeding almost any modern breed - they need to be very smart analysts and strategists, as well as resistant to the temptations of the high $$ they can get for superficially 'champion' puppies. (And of course many don't fit this 'standard'!!)

Del.

Whao! time-out. I have no intentions of breeding that close. i was always taught that breeding that close caused a lot of problems. i just want to know if it causes temperment problems and physical problems you can see if i were to get another dog for instance and for my own knowledge.

sorry if i came across that way.

Close breeding does not cause any problems that were not already in the genetic makeup of the dog.

Almost always there will be puppies who may have issues, and others who do not. The ones who do not demonstrate the issues are usually prepotent for that trait. This means they will pass this on to their offspring. In this way an experienced and knowledgeable breeder can eliminate undesireable traits from their line.

Inbreeding and linebreeding is only as good as the dog used, and the knowledge and expertise of the breeder in understanding which dogs to choose to continue with.

JMO as always...

I would never take the chance . Only line breeding for me .

Thanks for telling me. the question came up after i read a website.