Canada Pension raises retirement age for those under 54!

Doberluv

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#21
Thing is.... I don't want anything extra... I want the pension I contribute to, at the same age my parents received it...

There are some mathmatecians out there proving that sure the burdens a bit higher for the years the baby boomers retire, but will end up being leveled out when that generation is, ummm, gone... Then there will be far more paying in than collecting...

I just find it horribly offensive the amount of abusive of services while hard working people pay into their pension, as well as the taxes that support the abusers... And get shafted!!!
I didn't mean you getting anything extra or individuals who have put into the system all their lives. I meant society wanting the government to pay for every social service, every person who hasn't put into the system ever in their lives. With the exception of certain people who honestly can not support themselves due to real disbilities etc, I think people want too much. And all the bueurocracy costs money...lots of money. And all the dishonest, corrupt politicians, all their voting themselves raises, all the perks. They have so many entitlements that no other citizen has. Yes, as long as they are allowed to do that, we will fall.
 

Doberluv

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#22
Puckstop31;1965356[B said:
]"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."[/B]
Benjamin Franklin

He wasn't being prophetic there either, he just read a history book or two. It happened to Rome and it is going to happen to modern Western society. It does not have to, but it will. Stopping it will require politicians with the guts to say NO.

I do not believe VERY strongly in absolute minimal government intrusion (some call it "help") into ours lives because I am mean and want people to suffer. Quite the opposite is true.

Did you mean you do believe very strongly in absolute minimal government intrusion?
:hail:


Benjamin was absolutely positively right.
 

LauraLeigh

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#23
I didn't mean you getting anything extra or individuals who have put into the system all their lives. I meant society wanting the government to pay for every social service, every person who hasn't put into the system ever in their lives. With the exception of certain people who honestly can not support themselves due to real disbilities etc, I think people want too much. And all the bueurocracy costs money...lots of money. And all the dishonest, corrupt politicians, all their voting themselves raises, all the perks. They have so many entitlements that no other citizen has. Yes, as long as they are allowed to do that, we will fall.
Ahhhhh LOL

Forgive me, we are on the exact same wave length then!!;)
 

LauraLeigh

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#25
They raised it here a while back too, they're talking about raising it again... I don't see how I'll ever be able to retire. I'm already going to be pretty much living paycheck to paycheck. There's really nothing left to invest, especially since the safest investments require a large minimum to get started...
I'm basically counting on an early death to help me out. =P
I missed your pist somehow....

I understand, it's scary..... And I have this huge fear of dropping dead at m retirement party!!!!:rofl1::rofl1:
 

NicoleLJ

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#26
Had this as an edit, decided to make a new post do it would not get lost...

Nicole,

And we'll have to agree to disagree that 50% on the system truly need it...

Hub and I were married at 17/18 and had two babies by 18/19...

We struggled, we searched under cushions for milk money, we did menial jobs for little pay to supplement our income, we lived in a 600 square foot home with two kids that we owned, because it was what we could afford to own and heat...

We dug, scratched and clawed our way to a better life... Never once doing what so many others in our position did, turn to the government for help....

We are not special, anyone able bodied, willing to work **** hard and be poor as hell for a while could do the same...

Was it easy? While watching others get more money, more benefits, and far better housing on the government dime? Not at all...

Was it worth it? Hell yes!!!
Not everyone on SS is there because of laziness. Many are. Yes I will agree with that. But many are on it because of things that happened out of their control. Job loss, spouse death, illness, disability and so on. Just as it makes you angry to assume that most on it are milking the system, it also angers many that are honestly on it to be judge and condemed as lazy and so on simply becuase they hit hard times or have a disability or so on. It is such a broad brush and assumption to think that most are there to milk it. I will agree to disagree with you on it in that regaurds. SS should be a leg up and not a permanant solution. But it does very little, other to hand out checks, to help people off it and that is what really angers me about it.

It is a catch 22. Say a person named Jones had a good career and then the recession came. They have a family of 3 kids and a wife who also works. Suddenly they both or one loses a job. Now they have no income. They both look for work. Not enough jobs for so many people. Not even fast food jobs or being told they are over qualified. Nothing. They spend through their savings over a year trying to find work. Selling off what they can and going down to the bare basics. Finally they have to suck in their pride and ask for help. They get not even enough to cover the basics. THey continue to look for jobs while being judge for needing help. THey finally find some part time work and as soon as they are working they are kicked off even after it shows they bring in about half of what SS covered which agian didn't cover basics to begin with. There is no time delay. The day they started to work(though the first paycheck they recieved would not be for 2 weeks to a month) is when they get cut off. Which means they might not be able to pay rent, gas to get to work, groceries or so on. See this is the problem. It is not designed for people to get off of it and it should be.

All the people I know on it would have loved to be doing something, anything while on it. Teach them a trade, give them jobs in exchange for the ss funds, give them mandatory education for jobs while on it and so on. The SS system needs a complete overhaul to fix the issues.
 

LauraLeigh

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#27
Not everyone on SS is there because of laziness. Many are. Yes I will agree with that. But many are on it because of things that happened out of their control. Job loss, spouse death, illness, disability and so on. Just as it makes you angry to assume that most on it are milking the system, it also angers many that are honestly on it to be judge and condemed as lazy and so on simply becuase they hit hard times or have a disability or so on. It is such a broad brush and assumption to think that most are there to milk it. I will agree to disagree with you on it in that regaurds. SS should be a leg up and not a permanant solution. But it does very little, other to hand out checks, to help people off it and that is what really angers me about it.

It is a catch 22. Say a person named Jones had a good career and then the recession came. They have a family of 3 kids and a wife who also works. Suddenly they both or one loses a job. Now they have no income. They both look for work. Not enough jobs for so many people. Not even fast food jobs or being told they are over qualified. Nothing. They spend through their savings over a year trying to find work. Selling off what they can and going down to the bare basics. Finally they have to suck in their pride and ask for help. They get not even enough to cover the basics. THey continue to look for jobs while being judge for needing help. THey finally find some part time work and as soon as they are working they are kicked off even after it shows they bring in about half of what SS covered which agian didn't cover basics to begin with. There is no time delay. The day they started to work(though the first paycheck they recieved would not be for 2 weeks to a month) is when they get cut off. Which means they might not be able to pay rent, gas to get to work, groceries or so on. See this is the problem. It is not designed for people to get off of it and it should be.

All the people I know on it would have loved to be doing something, anything while on it. Teach them a trade, give them jobs in exchange for the ss funds, give them mandatory education for jobs while on it and so on. The SS system needs a complete overhaul to fix the issues.
I have NO issue with those who truly are disabled or can't work... I am NOT nor once did I say they were lazy...

I am torn on paying to teach trades, too many horrible stories of people in school just to take up space (EI is famous for this, extend benefits if you go to school)

Jeff put himself through trade school while supporting a family, it can be done... It takes an incredible amount of sacrifice but it canbe done..
 

Puckstop31

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#28
Just because you don't like it does not mean its a scam. A Ponzi scheme is a scam. Everything here is spelled out in excruciating detail.

Its funded for quite some time, though it will have issues if the population starts dropping. We can counter that with immigration if so many people would stop crying about that.

"The amount of the monthly benefit to which the worker is entitled depends upon that earnings record and upon the age at which the retiree chooses to begin receiving benefits. "

You get back, what you pay in, I can't see how some mythical entitlement mentality is going to change that.
ALL of this would be fine.... If there was an actual "fund", seperate from the rest of the budget for Social Security.

But, there is not. They take that money and spend it and put an IOU in its place. Now factor in we spend about a TRILLION dollars a year more than we take in. You can't live on credit cards forever, neither can a Government.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps all these immigrants will actually produce. I am not betting on that.

Social Security, as it is today, is a LIE. Especially if you are 45 or younger and work.
 

~Jessie~

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#30
This was the point I was trying to make you just said it better. Which is why having a seperate pension plan to go with the CPP is something that should be a priority.

LauraLeigh - It sounds like you are really angry about the social services programs then about Cpp. I think Social Services needs to be set up differently. BUT I do disagree that only a small percentage of the people on it actually need it. I would think it would be closer to 50% or more that are honestly on it. But it is also set up that when honest people have to use it then it is almost impossible to get off of it for many reasons. Do people abuse it? Yup. But the people I know that have had to use it all say the same thing. They make it almost imposible to get a job and get off it.
I agree, like the people who are on it and then import expensive breeds of dogs from Europe.

:popcorn:
 

NicoleLJ

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#31
I agree, like the people who are on it and then import expensive breeds of dogs from Europe.

:popcorn:
Nice jab but I am not on SS. I am on Assured Income for the Severly Handicap or AISH. There is a huge difference. One is a leg up. The other is there for people who are severly handicapped and can not work. I am disabled by my medical team decisions on my medical issues.

And just to add I am not paying for the pup from my AISH. That covers rent. Doug is paying for her from his wages that he works for.
 

~Jessie~

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#32
Nice jab but I am not on SS. I am on Assured Income for the Severly Handicap or AISH. There is a huge difference. One is a leg up. The other is there for people who are severly handicapped and can not work. I am disabled by my medical team decisions on my medical issues.

And just to add I am not paying for the pup from my AISH. That covers rent. Doug is paying for her from his wages that he works for.
ETA: It's not worth it ;)
 
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Doberluv

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#33
:rofl1:

Yes. Me fail English? That's unpossible. LOL
I do not believe VERY strongly in absolute minimal government intrusion (some call it "help") into ours lives because I am mean and want people to suffer. Quite the opposite is true.
Well, you could have meant that you do not believe in absolute minimal gov intrusion or "help." You believe in NO gov. intrusion. Or... you do not believe in minimal. You believe in maximal. :p That word, "absolute" has to be taken into account too. lol.
 

Puckstop31

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Well, you could have meant that you do not believe in absolute minimal gov intrusion or "help." You believe in NO gov. intrusion. Or... you do not believe in minimal. You believe in maximal. :p That word, "absolute" has to be taken into account too. lol.
Look, I know I suck at written communication. It gets worse when I am writing a firewall policy AND engaging in a discussion on Chaz. LOL

In summary... I want the government, at every level, to be involved our lives as little as possible. Why? Because they suck at pretty much everything they do. Top down, one size fits all solutions to problems do not jive with a society that is supposed to value the liberty of its citizens.
 

NicoleLJ

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#35
I am torn on paying to teach trades, too many horrible stories of people in school just to take up space (EI is famous for this, extend benefits if you go to school)

Jeff put himself through trade school while supporting a family, it can be done... It takes an incredible amount of sacrifice but it canbe done..
There will always be those who will find some way around any type of solution they put in so I prefer to look at solutions for those who really need it and want help. For me the reason why I like school or teaching a new trade while they are on benifits is for many I know it would give them more of an option for finding work. And I know it can be done but many need help to be able to do it.

THe way I look at it is this. If someone was selling houses when the recession hit and they lost there jobs and there is little hope in going back into that, yet say they love to work on electronics, or cars, or other such trades where there are some jobs then that means that person is not only given a better chance with that education in getting another job but it also gives them a second option if things fall apart for finding work which means it is that much less likely they will end up on it agian along with getting off of it sooner. THe more options a person has the better.
 

Doberluv

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#36
Oh, I don't think you suck at communication at all. That's why I love to leave these kinds of threads up to you. lol. I knew exactly what you meant.;)

The government totally sucks at whatever they do and why people keep thinking over and over again that somehow, they will handle this new program or that new regulation any better is beyond comprehension. Why do people keep entrusting the politicians to take care of us? They have ruined our economy and everything else they touch.
 

sparks19

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#37
There will always be those who will find some way around any type of solution they put in so I prefer to look at solutions for those who really need it and want help. For me the reason why I like school or teaching a new trade while they are on benifits is for many I know it would give them more of an option for finding work. And I know it can be done but many need help to be able to do it.

THe way I look at it is this. If someone was selling houses when the recession hit and they lost there jobs and there is little hope in going back into that, yet say they love to work on electronics, or cars, or other such trades where there are some jobs then that means that person is not only given a better chance with that education in getting another job but it also gives them a second option if things fall apart for finding work which means it is that much less likely they will end up on it agian along with getting off of it sooner. THe more options a person has the better.
But here's the thing... Money doesn't grow on trees

yes it would be nice if we could just look into solutions for those who truly need it but the reality is part of that solution needs to be getting the leaches off the system. We can't keep hemorrhaging money and expect to keep giving people on the system more and more and more without cutting some of it somewhere. Cutting some of the social systems is nessecary instead of just adding MORE social services.

The more options people have the better is true but where is the money for that going to come from? Tax those that do have jobs more and more and more until they too need these services?

and i don't understand the idea that we should just forget about those screwing the system and instead focus on people that really need the help. If it weren't for the people sucking the system dry the people that really needed the help could GET it.
 

NicoleLJ

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#38
But here's the thing... Money doesn't grow on trees

yes it would be nice if we could just look into solutions for those who truly need it but the reality is part of that solution needs to be getting the leaches off the system. We can't keep hemorrhaging money and expect to keep giving people on the system more and more and more without cutting some of it somewhere. Cutting some of the social systems is nessecary instead of just adding MORE social services.

The more options people have the better is true but where is the money for that going to come from? Tax those that do have jobs more and more and more until they too need these services?

and i don't understand the idea that we should just forget about those screwing the system and instead focus on people that really need the help. If it weren't for the people sucking the system dry the people that really needed the help could GET it.
I never said to stop trying to stop the leeches, I just said I prefer to focus on helping people to get off it sooner which saves money in every way. If someone is on it for a year because they cant get a job, yet someone else that had these options is off in 3 months, then then one off sooner actually saved money then for the system because they were on it for less time. And yes I know that money doesn't grow on trees. But the system now doesn't work. It makes it very hard to get off it. The sooner people are off the better this just is one option to try and get people off sooner.
 

LauraLeigh

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#39
I never said to stop trying to stop the leeches, I just said I prefer to focus on helping people to get off it sooner which saves money in every way. If someone is on it for a year because they cant get a job, yet someone else that had these options is off in 3 months, then then one off sooner actually saved money then for the system because they were on it for less time. And yes I know that money doesn't grow on trees. But the system now doesn't work. It makes it very hard to get off it. The sooner people are off the better this just is one option to try and get people off sooner.
Sorry I don't buy that the system makes it that much harder...

If you want off bad enough you (General You) can get off... I come from a very repressed area, where we lost almost all of our major industries within 2 years... Many of us faced job losses and cuts, yet most of us found a way to survive without welfare..

Sure if you look at straight dollars it's "hard" to get off, because you may make less money, have to move, have to live in a teeny house with no luxuries...

But those are choices, choices to stay on the system rather than do everything you can to get off.... Choices to not accept work that does not meet your criteria rather than work at menial jobs, multiple if necessary until a better comes along... And if you give it your all, work hard and keep pounding the pavement that better job will come along and someone will notice your effort!

Even during the toughest times work is out there, you have to look harder and work harder but jobs exsist, and employers will notice you if you prove your drive and desire....

I am shocked still at the amount of staff we go through at the shop to get one decent hard working employee.. And we pay quite decent for the area!
 

misfitz

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#40
If you want off bad enough you (General You) can get off... I come from a very repressed area, where we lost almost all of our major industries within 2 years... Many of us faced job losses and cuts, yet most of us found a way to survive without welfare..

Sure if you look at straight dollars it's "hard" to get off, because you may make less money, have to move, have to live in a teeny house with no luxuries...

But those are choices, choices to stay on the system rather than do everything you can to get off.... Choices to not accept work that does not meet your criteria rather than work at menial jobs, multiple if necessary until a better comes along... And if you give it your all, work hard and keep pounding the pavement that better job will come along and someone will notice your effort
You're assuming that these people want "luxuries" and already live in a large house. If they started out with nothing, and are barely scraping by in the first place, the choice between taking a part-time, minimum wage job that doesn't pay the rent on your tiny apartment, or staying on the system and being able to buy food...?

I think NicoleJ has a valid point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she's saying that helping people off of the system is the ONLY solution. Only that it's a part of the solution. It's like the animal shelter crowding problem - we can't solve it ONLY by spay/neuter, or ONLY by adopting. But many solutions working together to solve a complex problem with many facets and many causes.

And you can't realistically compare your experience in your town with someone else's experience in a different town/state/country in a different time period. Any more than I, in Los Angeles, can complain that people in Detroit just aren't looking hard enough for jobs. Sometimes jobs just DON'T exist - or not enough of them.

My family lived in the Silicon Valley during the dot-com crash. My brother, who was in high school, and his friends couldn't find any part-time jobs. Not even at McDonalds - all of those jobs were filled by out of work software engineers. Believe me, they looked, but the unemployment rate at that time was astronomical. And there were far more out of work engineers than there were cashier jobs at McDonalds. The highways at rush hour looked like post-apocalyptic - no cars at all.

My dad was lucky enough to have a network of friends who helped him get another job - at a 50% pay cut. Fine, you do what you have to. They ended up having to leave the Bay Area. Again, you do what you have to. But they were LUCKY. They had a house they could sell (albeit at a loss.) They had enough savings to enable them to live in the red for years, they had supportive friends and family, and they didn't have any medical or other emergencies.

Had they not had these things, who knows what would have happened. Someone living paycheck to paycheck at that time would have been devastated. If you're already near the bottom and something like that happens, it's not so easy to recover.

Ok, I'm done ranting. :) Anyone read Nickel & Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich? A journalist tried an experiment, starting with nothing to see where she could get with the proverbial hard work in several US cities. It's a pretty eye-opening book.
 

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