Protection dogs

altos1

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#21
They can and do well at the various protection sports i've seen them in. I only work them in prey though, not real aggression for a couple reasons. I do think a well balanced GSD is better. They can think and act, and they can switch drives easily between real aggression and realizing there is no threat and turning off, or they can just be playing or anything in between. That is for the good ones anyway, they aren't all good.

But with the "good" pit bulls i've seen they have more of a tenacity to them and once that real aggression is turned on, good f'ing luck turning it off again. So I just won't chance it because of the stigma they already have, and really I do protection sports for a sport and for fun. I don't use my dogs for protection, although i do feel better when my wife is home alone with the dogs, or when we are gone that nobody is going to come thru that door unwanted. But if I really felt threatened I would have a security system and a gun and my dogs would be coming with me. I advise others to do the same.
I like your imput! That's so very very true..

DanL, sounds like you truly adore what you do.. Cool
 
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#22
There are "generalities" that can be made in training a bully breed over a herder, but it all comes down to the dog. and trainers aren't bad at training one breed over another if they know how to read dogs and illicit the behaviors they want. The reason most of them fail is because they've learned a set of actions and if those actions don't work for every dog, then the dog is "no good" when in reality it is their tools that are lacking. They haven't really learned to train a dog, just go thru motions.
And most don't. Our training group is made up mostly of dogs who were washed by other trainers and by police departments. But with trainers and decoys who know HOW to work a dog and HOW to bring a dog out in many different ways are few and far between.
 
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#23
But with the "good" pit bulls i've seen they have more of a tenacity to them and once that real aggression is turned on, good f'ing luck turning it off
Your above statement is exactly WHY those of us who own bully breeds have trouble finding people who actually understand how to work our dogs! Because some "trainers" think that way . . . which is just absurd.

As with the rest of the breeds, and the rest of the issues with training in bitework, it's all in the training methods! We have so many different breeds in our training group: GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, Dogos, Alapahas (obviously), and yes even an APBT. The dogs are all worked differently according to their personalities and drives. But the way you describe an APBT in fight drive makes them sound like all of a sudden they are out of control beasts! Again, when properly built up, you have control. I consider both of my dogs very solid, and you'd better believe they love the fight. I like GSDs, I grew up with them, but when it comes to bitework I'll take the tenacity of a bulldog anyday. But I don't see how a well bred and trained GSD is any better than a well bred and trained APBT or ABBB.



Edited to take out some extras and get more to the point . . . I get wordy ;)
 
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corgipower

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#24
But then there is the thing where they are not supposed to put their mouths on a human in an aggressive manner, EVER.
Protection training isn't aggression. It's drives, it's trained, it's controlled. Any dog trained in protection should be able to bite when threatened and not bite the rest of the time.
 
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Squishy22

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#25
They can and do well at the various protection sports i've seen them in. I only work them in prey though, not real aggression for a couple reasons. I do think a well balanced GSD is better. They can think and act, and they can switch drives easily between real aggression and realizing there is no threat and turning off, or they can just be playing or anything in between. That is for the good ones anyway, they aren't all good.

But with the "good" pit bulls i've seen they have more of a tenacity to them and once that real aggression is turned on, good f'ing luck turning it off again. So I just won't chance it because of the stigma they already have, and really I do protection sports for a sport and for fun. I don't use my dogs for protection, although i do feel better when my wife is home alone with the dogs, or when we are gone that nobody is going to come thru that door unwanted. But if I really felt threatened I would have a security system and a gun and my dogs would be coming with me. I advise others to do the same.
I tend to cringe when I see a pittie working in protection on youtube. Just for the very reason that they are bred not to quit or give up no matter what. Its iffy whether or not they would obey the handlers command to let go. I've been on pittie forums before and people tend to tell me otherwise... that pits would do great, but I still feel weary about it.
 
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Squishy22

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#26
Protection training isn't aggression. It's drives, it's trained, it's controlled. Any dog trained in protection should be able to bite when threatened and not bite the rest of the time.
Well, its pretty safe to say that I dont know much at all about the sport. A lot of people say they would do great and a lot of people say they would do horrible. Its not about biting when they aren't supposed to, but about letting go when they are told to.
 

corgipower

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#27
Its not about biting when they aren't supposed to, but about letting go when they are told to.
Well, that's what training teaches them :D

It starts with a tug toy and then teaching an "out command". The tug toy eventually becomes the size of a full grown man. Mals aren't always so good at letting go either ;)
 
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Squishy22

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#28
Well, that's what training teaches them :D

It starts with a tug toy and then teaching an "out command". The tug toy eventually becomes the size of a full grown man. Mals aren't always so good at letting go either ;)
Ok, I see. Then it sounds like they would do amazingly well. Reggins fave game is tug. He doesn't do so well with letting go, but only because I always let him have it after he pulls me around. lol.
 
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#29
Ok, I see. Then it sounds like they would do amazingly well. Reggins fave game is tug. He doesn't do so well with letting go, but only because I always let him have it after he pulls me around. lol.
Well then that's just building drive!

Seriously as I said in my above post, a well bred and trained APBT can do the work just as well as a well bred and trained GSD. You just have to find a trainer who A) Isn't afraid of your dog simply because of breed and B) Understands how to properly work drives other than prey.
 

corgipower

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#30
Ok, I see. Then it sounds like they would do amazingly well. Reggins fave game is tug. He doesn't do so well with letting go, but only because I always let him have it after he pulls me around. lol.
Yes. That's the building up stage of things. And even after we teach an "out", we let them have their prize more often than not. If we do too much "outting", they start to anticipate it and they let go on their own.

Also, I do most of my "out" training on other things (like hoofs or other bones and balls). I find the command carries over well without leading as much of the anticipation issues mentioned above.
 
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#31
Your above statement is exactly WHY those of us who own bully breeds have trouble finding people who actually understand how to work our dogs! Because some "trainers" think that way . . . which is just absurd.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Let me ask you a question, have you ever put the suit on or sleeve and trained any dogs from pup on to titles in ring or schutzhund? or any bite sport? And it isn't just my opinion, Would you call Bernhard Flinks just "some" trainer?? I didn't get my opinion from him, but he illustrated it well at a small training group we had him at last year.

It's not an insult, or a my dogs are better than your dogs statement. It is exactly as you've said, they are different generally speaking.

I know bully breeds have to be worked differently, maybe I didn't explain it very well, its kind of hard to do on a message board. For me anyway. There is a line you can cross with a well bred shepherd that a smart trainer will not cross with a bully breed. You can have your opinion, I'll have mine. We also have many breeds in our club from pit bulls, bouviers, mals, boxers Fila's, Rotties and GSD's. Even had some hovawarts and some other off breeds like a golden retrievers have come thru at times.

it's no different than the difference between Mals and Shepherds. Yes there are exceptions all the time, but in general, Mals tend to be more reactive as a general rule than shepherds. That comes with pluses and minuses depending on what types of dogs you like to work with. They tend to tolerate a lot less handler "errors" than shepherds do as well. that doesn't mean there aren't reactive shepherds or mals that tolerate handler errors without biting the handler, but overall the trend tends to be towards a more reactive breed.
 
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#32
You have your opinion, I have mine. Let me ask you a question, have you ever put the suit on or sleeve and trained any dogs from pup on to titles in ring or schutzhund? or any bite sport? And it isn't just my opinion, Would you call Bernhard Flinks just "some" trainer?? I didn't get my opinion from him, but he illustrated it well at a small training group we had him at last year.

It's not an insult, or a my dogs are better than your dogs statement. It is exactly as you've said, they are different generally speaking.

I know bully breeds have to be worked differently, maybe I didn't explain it very well, its kind of hard to do on a message board. For me anyway. There is a line you can cross with a well bred shepherd that a smart trainer will not cross with a bully breed. You can have your opinion, I'll have mine. We also have many breeds in our club from pit bulls, bouviers, mals, boxers Fila's, Rotties and GSD's. Even had some hovawarts and some other off breeds like a golden retrievers have come thru at times.

it's no different than the difference between Mals and Shepherds. Yes there are exceptions all the time, but in general, Mals tend to be more reactive as a general rule than shepherds. That comes with pluses and minuses depending on what types of dogs you like to work with. They tend to tolerate a lot less handler "errors" than shepherds do as well. that doesn't mean there aren't reactive shepherds or mals that tolerate handler errors without biting the handler, but overall the trend tends to be towards a more reactive breed.
I've been in the suit and put on the sleeve a few times. I can't do it as often as I want because I have a bad back.

I have never heard of Bernhard Flink. And frankly I've met some people who have big names in some of these sports, who've been doing this for years, and they couldn't read a dog if it had the instructions on how to read it glued right to the fur. As was said earlier, many people out there know how to train one way and one way only. And since many of these sports were originally developed for herders, that's what that one way is geared towards.

My group considers itself the Island of the Misfit Toys. I'd say 90% of our dogs have been washed by other trainers who have been in their sports for more years than I've been alive. I didn't look at the NAME when I was trying to find someone to train with, I went through 10 different people while trying to find someone who actually knew how to work a dog by reading a dog. Period.

Now please elaborate what this "line" you keep speaking of is. Is it putting defense on a dog? How is that line able to be crossed with a GSD and not with a bully breed?
 
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#33
Well you should meet him, then tell me he can't read a dog. I only brought up his name because he is someone that most people in protection sports have heard of and i've never heard anybody say a negative word about him, which is pretty rare.

As was said earlier, many people out there know how to train one way and one way only. And since many of these sports were originally developed for herders, that's what that one way is geared towards.
and I agreed, that was kind of my whole point that the dogs weren't bad, the decoy's tools were lacking.

all the dogs that are capable do the work, do it just fine, no matter the breed, but I will NOT do real aggression training with any dog really because I don't think anybody in the general public is capable of handling or has a need. IF they did I wouldn't do it with a bully breed because of public perception, stigma and yes in my experience there is a line that can be crossed with a breed like a gsd that you don't cross with a bully.

It goes beyond just simple defense and most dogs never even approach it in training either because they can't handle it or because it is pointless to do it. ask your trainer what that line is, they should be able to explain it or show you, certainly much better than I could with words on message board.

This opinion is drawn upon from a few examples of dogs that I considered "good" dogs. There's a line that can be crossed with any dog with less than ideal temperments and bad training, no matter what they breed. But i'm not talking about those dogs.

With a good strong GSD when you make that dog feel real intense pressure and he pushes back with everything he's got and then you take away that pressure, they can stop. With a good strong bully you put that pressure on and make them push back with everything they've got, they don't stop when its taken away, they have a singlular focus at that point. Telling me it doesn't happen isn't going to change what i've experiened.

I was simply stating why I won't do real aggression training with a bully breed. That was one reason in my original post. In retrospect I should not have even brought it up as nothing good could have come of it. I really like them, especially pit bulls. If it wasn't for the public perception I would have at least one. Right now I don't want to deal with it. I can have my bite trained "police" dogs, as everyone calls them, and nobody says too much. Any of the pit bulls with good temperments we've had have been as capable as GSD's' for doing these bite sports no doubt. I've seen too many good ones to say otherwise, but it doesn't mean I haven't noticed differences too.
 

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