House Training Issues

Hi Everyone,

I stumbled on this site and found the information and support on this site to be very informative, so I thought I would join.

I have a situation with my puppy (Kara Zor-El... I call her Kara). I am at my wit's end with house training. Let me describe the situation and if you have any advice please help...I am so afraid that I will end up having the most obedient dog...who still poops and pees in the house

So...Kara gets fed in the morning at around 6:30 (I do take her out right before eating and it's usually a number 1). Then we go upstairs and I take a shower. After I get ready for work, I take her on a short 10-15 minute walk and after the walk she number 2s...she doesn't number 1 again). Then, I gate her in the kitchen and leave for work (7:50am ish).

Time for some background info...so I've been looking at this website by a well-known animal behaviourist who says he doesn't recomment crates for house training. He doesn't say they're bad, but he feels that house training in a kitchen (or a confined room) is better. This suited me just fine b/c she constantly peed in her crate.

The first week in the kitchen (with the exception of the first day) she was wonderful. Every week after, there is always poop or pee or both. I use Nature's Miracle to clean up the area. The animal behaviourist, in his book, says that if your puppy makes a mistake, sop up the pee and/or pick up the poop and take your puppy with the pee and poop into a more confined area (I use my 1/2 bathroom) and place the pup in there for 20 mminutes with the mess, returning every 10 minutes to say "No!" The behaviourist's rationale is that the puppy should learn that Peeing or Pooping anywhere in the house isn't allowed, which kinda makes sense to me. However, this doesn't appear to really be getting the point across as she still pees and poops.

I work full time. All my time outside of work is devoted to Kara. I can only come home at ~12pm to let her out and I stay with her for an hour and then I come back to work. I know the rule of thumb is your puppy needs to go out once every X hours (x = how old your pup is in months, Kara = 3 months). I can't do that, though, without risk of losing my job. All my firends work the same hours that I do, so asking them to help out is out of the question.

When she hits 5 months, she should be able to hold it for at least five hours, but with all the pooping and peeing she is doing in the kitchen, will I be reinforcing that it's okay for her to go in the house (since I can't do anything about it b/c I'm at work)? I've even thought about trying to set up a webcam at my house so I can spy on her from work and record the times that she is going to the bathroom so I can try and take an earlier break to take her out.

What would you all recommend? I love my puppy and I will deal with this no matter what, but after a stressful day at work I would much rather take my pup to a park immediately, than clean up her mess and place it in the bathrrom with her for 20 minutes as punsihment.

1) how old is the puppy
2) where did you get it
3) Are you feeding on a schedule, or do you leave food out?
4) are you REWARDING with food all outdoor elimination?
5) read the sticky at the top of this section, "Housetraining without being mean"

1) how old is the puppy

She is 3 months 2 weeks old


2) where did you get it

A reputable Doberman breeder from West Virginia. My first Doberman was purchased from them (he belongs to my ex-gf). I missed having a puppy/dog around so much that I purchased her on 10/29. They are half-siblings (same mom, different dad)


3) Are you feeding on a schedule, or do you leave food out?

She is fed at 6:30am and 6:00pm. Food is not left out, neither is water. I talked to my vet and with his "water dosage" recommendation I ration out water as well to try to contain the pee accidents.


4) are you REWARDING with food all outdoor elimination?

This was something that I started to do after reading the house training topics on the Dog Training forum.


5) read the sticky at the top of this section, "Housetraining without being mean"

I have read them. I posted a seperate topic b/c i haven't found a situation that resembles mine (single parent, young puppy), which is why I started this thread.

I'm beginning to think that with my schedule that house-training is going to be more difficult until she gets older. I just don't want it reinforced that pooing and peeing in the house is tolerable.

If you're suggesting that putting her in the bathroom as punishment is "mean", I don't think that it is. I don't scream or yell at her when I see an accident, I try to "guilt my puppy" as was recommended to my by a friend (she says that guilt is a better form of behaviour modification that anger). I say things like "Oh my gosh, I'm so sad that you peed in house..." in a down-trodden tone. It's essentially like a "time-out" for a child.

I'm afraid to not do anything after she has an accident, b/c I don't want her to think it's okay to have accidents in the house. The time-out punishment seems to be the most logical.

edit: took out an unecessary comma.

Dogs do not respond to punishment after the fact. They respond much better to rewards for proper behavior.

Dogs particularly do not understand TIME OUT after the fact. When you return 10 minutes after the puppy has made a mistake, she is learning nothing. Elimination is a pleasureable experience for a puppy. If you scold her, or use punishment after the fact in the manner in which you are doing, you will only teach her to sneak off and eliminate away from you.

How are you supervising this puppy inside the house?

I would not be correcting the puppy for any mistakes except the ones when you catch you in the act. When you do, clap your hands, and say AH AH! OUTSIDE! and rush her outside in hopes she will finish there. If not, oh well.

It is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT to reward correct outdoor behavior, and supervise REALLY CAREFULLY to try to prevent mistakes inside the house.

A normal puppy of 12-14 weeks should be able to keep clean if you are coming home at lunch to take her out.

Please forget the "advice" you have read about punishing your puppy for indoor elimination. Focus on REWARDING outdoor elimination. I would be saving the very tastiest bits of meat from your meals for her, and making a HUGE fuss over her each time she eliminates outdoors. Using a CUE WORD, such as "go pee pee" or "go poop" will also teach her what these behaviors are called, so that you can ASK for them when you go outside. (YES, dogs will learn to eliminate on command. )

Try to eliminate chances for her to eliminate when you are at home with her.

Any mistakes that occur when you are present are YOUR FAULT.

Thanks for the tips, Redyre!

Point taken about the time-out after the fact.

Kara is by my side at all times when I'm at home. She's on lead. She has never peed in the house when I'm home b/c I am always watching her. However, she did do something yesterday when my firend and I were talking in the kitchen. I tried taking her out twice to go to the bathroom and when she didn't go. When my friend and I started cooking something together, she peed on the kitchen floor (my back was turned to her and I didn't see her go). It makes me feel that she 1) Likes to pee in the kitchen and 2) Pees to get my attention. But other than that, she has never peed in the house since the first week she was at home.

I know it's my fault when I come home from work and there's a mess . I don't blame her...I can't b/c of my work schedule. Should I do anything if there is a mess on the ground? I'm sooo afraid she will think if it's okay, if there's a mess on the ground and I don't address it. Her behaviour is totally different when there is a mess in the kitchen, it's like she knows she did something bad. Would it be like I was giving in to her urination and defecation if I stop the time out?

I will start rewarding her going pee or poop outside. I say the phrases but there's only been petting and praise for "doing her business", I'll have to start with food.

I can't tell you how much your advice means to me. Thanks again.

Nope

and nope.

Dogs are simply not capable of those sorts of though processes. She urinated because she needed to. It feels good to empty a full bladder, no matter where you are standing.



Have faith. Some dogs take longer than others. Up your rewards for outdoor elimination. Be creative on the tasty goodies you offer, and repeat GO PEE PEE every time she is doing it, and vice versa. As SOON as she is done, pop several great treats in her mouth, and praise praise praise.

She will catch on.

/bow :hail:

I understand that you have read that crate training isn't the best but I would try a crate..they do not like to go in the crate. I did read that she was going in the crate but why not try it again. You are fortunate to be able to go home at lunch. I was not and my guy did great in his crate when I know he would have had accidents in the kitchen because he did when we would have him in there during short outings on the weekend. If you want her to be able to have some freedom put her in the bathroom with the crate door open a smaller area might stop the accidents. Good luck and it does eventually work out sometimes it just takes longer.

IMHO, crates were sent from "above". when it comes to housetraining.
I have never had a problem with housetraining while using a crate.

If you do go to using a crate make sure it isn't too large. Only large enough for the puppy to stand, turn around and lay down. I never had a dog turn out negatively because it was crate trained. And I don't use a crate all of their lives, just until it can be trusted in the house by itself.

You sound like you probably have a good schedule and consistency is the "key" to it all. My youngest is 5 1/2 months old and at age 3 months she was trained. If any of my dogs past or present didn't wake me in the middle of the night to go out then they stayed dry in the daytime while I was at work too. I just made sure I got up really early on workday mornings so the puppy would be up for at least 2 hours or more before I went to work. I was gone for at least 6 hours. Never a problem. I have always had large breed dogs though. I regulate water intake while housetraining ESPECIALLY prior to bedtime. I sound like a nut when housetraining, outside saying, "pee-pee, pee-pee, pee-pee until they pee, then GOOOOOOOD PEE PEE!!! LOL YAY, GOOD PUPPY, and you do the "good pee-pee dance" LOL and reward. All of mine thought that was the greatest thing. I think they just liked to pee outside to hear and see me act like a nut. But if an accident happened and I didn't catch it, then I ignored it. However, IF I caught it happening in the act, well, then I rushed him/her outside before they finished and they resumed the pee or poop outside.

Good Luck

Try the crate

I don't know what kind of behaviorist that is or where he/she got the training, but that is the most "out there" kind of misinformation I've heard in a long time. It will teach her absolutely nothing.

Do like these posters here advised and read that sticky on top of the page on potty training....lots of good help there.

Here's a potty training thread I replied to which includes, hopefully some insight into how science and research explains how dogs apparently learn and perceive things along with a few more tips.

Punishment or reward must come within 3 seconds of the behavior. After that, the dog is onto something else and you'll either be punishing or rewarding a different behavior, not the one you were targeting. It doesn't matter if the dog is smelling it's excretement or not. Dogs do not go through that complex of a thought process. That will confuse your pup and cause distrust or bewilderment.

Hope things get turned around.

I too, recommend a crate for potty training. The more accidents you let happen, the more the puppy is reinforced for going inside, thereby increasing the probability of her repeating the behavior. She's not being naughty, stubborn or getting back at you. Dogs don't have the ability to be spiteful. They simply do what works. And they do what they do best, that is...to be a dog and do dog things until we teach them how to do it our way.