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  #31  
Old 09-10-2007, 03:48 PM
CountryGrl CountryGrl is offline
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Originally Posted by ToscasMom View Post
Thanks Steve.

Sometimes I just wonder if we aren't all anal rententive about our pets like we have become with our own lives and nutrition. The dog I mentioned that lived to age 18? He ate Ken-L Ration all his life.

Every day. Nothing added. No vitamins. No fish oil. Nothing else, day in, day out, with the exception of the meatballs on Sunday, and pancakes with syrup......
I wonder how any of the dogs that I had as a kid made it.
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  #32  
Old 09-10-2007, 05:27 PM
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But my grandmother drank like a fish, smoked like a chimney and was the most wrinkled person I have ever met in my life, as she was so concerned about having the perfect tan. She lived to be 84. That is not to say with a healthier life style she wouldn't have lived to 100.
My grandfather lived till just short of his 97th. Smoked two packs of Camels a day, if it wasn't red meat he wasn't really interested. Ate all the grizzle too. He put a roof on his own house when he was in his 80s. Considering his diet, it was amazing he had no fat on him. Shot everything that moved and ate it. Sucked raw eggs direct from the chicken. No lie. He poked holes in the ends and sucked the egg out. I saw him eat a half dozen eggs at breakfast with no sweat. In my estimation, he only lived as long as he did because of his genes. It could have been the mayo though. He refused to eat mayo j/k. Anyways, his father died short of his 94th in an era where that was impossible. Got hit by his own horse and buggy, he did.

I remember when they caught C Everette Coop eating home fries, eggs and sausage. When questioned about his fervor over everyone else's diet, he said he had the genes for the breakfast he was eating. I wish my poor friend Bill understood that. He spend so much of his life staring at other people's french fries. He was a stickler about his health because his dad died of a heart attack at such a young age. Ran his miles every morning. Not an ounce of fat on him. They found him in the bushes near his running trail, dead a year younger than his dad died. I will never be convinced that genes and moving further than the couch to the chair don't play the most important role in health and longevity.
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  #33  
Old 09-10-2007, 06:28 PM
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IMO (not directed at the OP) is that if a person can't keep their male dog away from girls in heat, and vice versa, for a year or more, then they aren't responsible enough, and shouldn't own a dog.
I don't really disagree with most of your points, Dekka. I can't say I've done enough research on it to really argue intelligently; Meg was spayed at a year (after a litter ) before I got her, so it hasn't been a major concern of mine to investigate. That was the part of your post that I took a bit of offense to. Although I guess what it comes down to is that I probably could keep an intact dog away from other intact dogs for a year; I just choose a lifestyle that doesn't offer any guarantees of it, and as I said, will not take the risk. To each there own. As I said, a year and a half ago, I would have made a snap decision that anyone who chose to keep a non-breeding dog intact past six months was being irresponsible; I can now see why people make the choice, and if they do it safely, will not judge them.

Should I choose a puppy for my next dog, as opposed to an already fixed rescue, I will certainly look into the situation more so I can at least make an educated decision.
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  #34  
Old 09-10-2007, 06:34 PM
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Boston. Its not really that hard to keep them away. All my dogs at the moment are intact (Scandal will be getting spayed sometime over the winter) But there are lots of signs days before a girl comes into heat, so you can keep her on leash, under close supervision for the duration. Most dogs only come into heat 2 times a year. So if you had a med sized dog, that is only living through 2 or 3 heats. Scandal will have only had one, by the looks of it. So its not that bad. If you have a male dog, be aware of other intact girl dogs that your dog visits. Also have a good recall. My dogs hang and run off leash around the farm too. Boy dogs can work with their brains not their balls. Kaiden can do out of sight stays beside girls in heat.
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  #35  
Old 09-10-2007, 06:58 PM
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I think I would feel better about it if I owned the female in the equation; as you said, heats are only occasionally, so it would be a matter of confining the dog only during certain times. I would just worry with a male that someone else wouldn't be responsible; not so much at the farm, where I pretty much know all the dogs coming and going, but in situations like going hiking. How long does it take for them to...come together? I'm thinking of those moments where Meg goes galloping over a hill ahead of me, or chases something off into the bushes. Yes, I could call her back, but I don't generally worry about her being out of sight for a minute/minute and a half. If she were an intact male, and ran into a female in heat during that time, could they get to the "point of no return"? I've never been around dog breeding, in case that wasn't obvious .
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  #36  
Old 09-10-2007, 07:06 PM
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I've recently just changed my view of early spay and neuter. I had Rowdy done at 6 months and he's a giraffe compared to other boxers. I was about to have Disco spayed until I found this paper - it, by far is the most balanced paper I have seen on this subject to date.

The Long Term Health Effects of Spay and Neuter in Dogs

From the 'introduction', so that you have an idea of what's in the paper:


Quote:
Ms Sanborn has reviewed the veterinary medical literature in an exhaustive and scholarly treatise, attempting to unravel the complexities of the subject. More than 50 peer-reviewed papers were examined to assess the health impacts of spay / neuter in female and male dogs, respectively. One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal’s health and well-being. The decision for females may be more complex, further emphasizing the need for individualized veterinary medical decisions, not standard operating procedures for all patients.
I think for the most part and early S&N is recommended because it's the most convenient option for most people - not because it's healthiest for the dog.
While I am all for S&N, I think it's important to point out that there are, in fact, risks to having the surgery done (beyond the usual surgical risks); that waiting until 14-18 months of age or later may be in the best interests of the dog; and that people should make a decision based on all the relevant information, not just the AR's "spay/neuter everything, it's better for your pet's health and has no downside"...propaganda.
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  #37  
Old 09-10-2007, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
Yes, I could call her back, but I don't generally worry about her being out of sight for a minute/minute and a half. If she were an intact male, and ran into a female in heat during that time, could they get to the "point of no return"? I've never been around dog breeding, in case that wasn't obvious .
Yes, if she were a male it could happen. I still don't understand why, for pet dogs, people are advocating later S/N. It just seems that the longer the dogs hold onto their 'parts' the harder it is for the owners to get them in to get them S/N. If you aren't going to breed/do performance work then go ahead and S/N at 6 months. After all, they can't prove that the dogs life was shorter because of an early spay neuter. Most people who complain about "taller, lankier etc" dogs etc do it as an after thought. "Well, I didn't buy from the best breeder, but now that I know this about early S/N I'm going to blame my dog's tallness, bad hips etc on that." Sorry, its just a pet peeve of mine. Don't discourage people who want to get S/N out of the way so they dont have to deal with the hormones. They are, after all, preventing other litters from being brought into this world.
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  #38  
Old 09-10-2007, 10:26 PM
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I know Elwood wasn't from a great breeder so if he has anything wrong with him I'm more than likely going to say it was from his breeding not the neuter. He's always been a tall lanky fellow so I don't think that neutering him at 6 months would make a big difference in how he looks as an adult.

I was just so shocked that these people jumped on me because I have now created so many health problems with my dog because I did not properly educate myself before getting him neutered. I did properly educate myself and thought it best to get it done at 6 months of age and I didn't feel like I had to defend my decision to them one bit.

Hannah was done at 6 months and even though she is tall and lanky and has a bad hip I don't blame that one bit on the spay it's definetely from the breeding as I have seen how the other puppies have turned out as well and most are tall, lanky, and there is another who has similar hip problems as Hannah. Most of the puppies are owned either by the guy we got Hannah from (mark's friend) or other people just as irresponsible (people at Mark's work) and I think 2 out of that litter (including Hannah) have been fixed.
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  #39  
Old 09-11-2007, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21 View Post
I think for the most part and early S&N is recommended because it's the most convenient option for most people - not because it's healthiest for the dog.
Exactly. That's what I got out of the article that stevepax posted too- it's easier for the vet and easier for the dog- all convenience factors. I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's more convenient for the owner to do a spay/neuter early, that's their choice, but you need to at least be informed of the repercussions of going either way. I've never had a vet tell me "wait til your GSD is 2-3 years old so he is fully developed". I bet it's rare for a vet to say that to anyone. I wouldn't have known about it if one of Gunnar's former trainers hadn't mentioned it to me, and then I started researching it. She even had an example of an early neuter vs an older neuter. The early neuter was thin as a rail and 4-5 inches taller than the older neuter.

We did get Daisy spayed at 6 months- it was part of our contract with the breeder, and we didn't want her going into heat as keeping her and Gunnar separated is nearly impossible.
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  #40  
Old 09-11-2007, 07:36 AM
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Its not always breeding, you see it in littermates in well bred litters too. Even the vets who are all for early s/n will tell you that the dogs will get taller and lankier. There is no argument there. The same thing happens with horses, geldings are taller and less developed than stallions. Even with humans, boys who were made eunuchs before puberty grew tall and narrow.
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