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  #51  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
I think that if 40% of Rotties are affected by this problem, the dog shouldn't be bred, for the following reasons.

1. If it's that common, it greatly increases the odds that even a stud with excellent or normal elbows will be a carrier, thus resulting in affected pups.

2. This isn't a rare breed, it's a rottweiller. There are tons of them. And 60% are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.

Just my two cents . . . I'm not trying to attack anyone or rag on the dog.
Yes, but you have to look at it from another standpoint. How many are OFA'ed? You are REALLY limiting your gene pool if you cut out that 40%. On top of that you can't make this type of decision based on registration numbers. I would be willing to bet that 90-98% of all dogs registered will never be health tested. Just because most litters produce more pets than dogs that will go on to show and reproduce. So ALL of those registered Rotties out there mean nothing as far as OFA statistics go.

Honestly, in my breed there isn't any one problem that plagues us more than deafness. There is no genetic test for it. It is always a gamble. You can breed two full hearing dogs and get an entire litter of deaf puppies, or you may not get any. Of course we all do BAER testing to determine if the dog hears bilaterally, unilaterally, or is deaf, but no one actually sends those results in to OFA. There is no way to track it through the pedigrees, and if you could, I don't think it would give any fast, hard statistics.

Someone I knew bred her full hearing bitch to a full hearing dog and had two deaf puppies in the litter. I bred my unilateral bitch to the same dog and had a litter of all hearing puppies (one unilateral). Was it wrong for me to do this breeding? I don't think so. My bitch is OFA good, elbows normal. She is an AKC champion with multiple group placements. She also has her NA and RN and is working on more titles.

To each his own, but I think in this case there are a lot of people saying "oh no I wouldn't breed the dog" when they don't know what something like that can do to a breed. In a lot of breeds people are in denial, they don't test for problems so they don't know they have them. Toy breeds NEVER x-ray hips and I would be willing to bet that if they started they would see a whole heap of problems that have gone unseen. Another thing, people are so uptight about the OFA patellas,but do you realize that there is no x-ray required for that? The vet manipulates the dogs patellas and if he can luxate them he write down what 'grade' the luxation is, and that is the extent of the OFA, so don't tell me that there arent people out there who have a vet for a friend who will essentially fudge a test for them. At least Redyre has tested, recognized the problem and is working to correct it.
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  #52  
Old 03-07-2007, 03:11 AM
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Redyre - Thank you for clarifying. I was genuinely curious.
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  #53  
Old 03-07-2007, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by OutlineACDs View Post
Honestly, in my breed there isn't any one problem that plagues us more than deafness. There is no genetic test for it. It is always a gamble. You can breed two full hearing dogs and get an entire litter of deaf puppies, or you may not get any. Of course we all do BAER testing to determine if the dog hears bilaterally, unilaterally, or is deaf, but no one actually sends those results in to OFA. There is no way to track it through the pedigrees, and if you could, I don't think it would give any fast, hard statistics.

Someone I knew bred her full hearing bitch to a full hearing dog and had two deaf puppies in the litter. I bred my unilateral bitch to the same dog and had a litter of all hearing puppies (one unilateral). Was it wrong for me to do this breeding? I don't think so. My bitch is OFA good, elbows normal. She is an AKC champion with multiple group placements. She also has her NA and RN and is working on more titles.

I dont know that I would agree with breeding a uni female. I am not familiar with ACDs but am familiar with Dalmatians who have the same problem. There arent a lot of homes that would be suitable for a deaf dog. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people simply do not want a deaf dog.

I personally wouldnt take the chance. I dont know a lot about the genetics but I do know unis are more likely to throw deaf puppies.

I also take into consideration it is different then dalmatians because the people who breed uni dals and end up with deaf pups euthanize the deaf pups It's the DCA stance that all deaf puppies should be euthanized because they are "so unpredictable". (Yup, that is why my deaf dal girl has the most stable temperment of all my dogs)

So I guess it is different. Maybe there are more people in ACDs who are willing to take a deaf puppy but I know in Dalmatians, those homes are few and far between.

Sorry to get off topic.

As for the Rottie breeding, to be honest, I know nothing of the breed or of the elbow problems. I can say it seems like Red has thought this over, and made what she thinks is the best decision.

Honestly, I am just thankful that she has worked so hard with her dog. I knew someone who had 3 Rotties. One female, and 2 males. His favorite was the older male. The older male was the younger male's father. The older male had hip dysplacia. None of them, of course show dogs, they were all BYB dogs. Knowing the older dog had HD, the guy bred the younger male to the female. (He wanted a puppy to remember his older dog by, I tried & tried to talk him into rescuing a puppy instead) The female had 7 puppies. She killed (literally) all but 2. They were both females. The guy who "Bred" them wanted a male. So he was asking me what I thought about him breeding her again *sigh*. I gave him the emails of some respectable breeders I found online and told him to ask one of them, knowing what they would say. Dont know if he ever contacted them or not (he told me he didnt) but he decided against breeding her and decided to keep both puppies instead. But what are the chanced they will have HD? VERY high.

I dont have the info nor do I even come close to knowing enough to "take a side". I do know though that Red seems like a very responsible person who has really thought about this. It is also obvious to me that Red has worked her bum off to earn Penny so many titles and to make sure she was tempermentally, and conformationally solid.

I guess it would help if I knew more about DJD too and how it affected the dogs who had it. Like can the dogs still get around or is it so bad you have to euthanize them? Is it like arthritis or is it cripling?
  #54  
Old 03-07-2007, 09:31 AM
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I think it's ridiculous to cull out all dogs with minor problems such as this. You'll be hard pressed to find a perfect specimen that doesn't carry any issue. No dog is perfect. Suggesting culling 40% of the gene pool is also a very scary thing. And who's to say that other 60% is entirely healthy in all other ways. I don't know much about DJD but I do know about patellas and PRA in papillons. Whoever said toys are hardly ever X0rayed for hips is completely right. Patellar scrrenings are just as they said, and PRA is basically a hit or miss. You can have a dog CERFed but that doesn't mean the dog won't have retinal problems in the future. You can be sure the dog is healthy at the time of the breeding, but that's it.

I think what it comes down to is a decision by the breeder on whether the breeding is worth it. They need to evaluate the dog in a non biased way and ask themselves seriously if breeding this dog would be beneficial to the breed. There's a lot more than one elbow to look at with breeding- temperament, type, conformation, work ability, overall health, drive, etc.

I know one person who had a top 10 great dane. Gorgeous dog, wonderful type, beautiful color, great personality, you name it. He was insanely titled and gorgeous, then began developing retinal issues. He was neutered and never sired a litter. I also know a very well known papillon who has produced several pups with grade 3 luxating patellas. And they still breed him. Sometimes being honest is looking past all these titles and seeing what is really there. Kennel blindness and focusing on titles can lead to devastating results.

I don't know the specifics, but I'd hope and I'll assume that Red and the other people involved with this breeding have weighed out all the factors involved and have come to what they feel is an educated decision. I really think the way this was brought up on the other thread was highly rude and could have been done in a much more mature way. If anyone wants to talk about DJD and rottie genetics, I'd be more than happy to discuss on a thread that has less to do with personal attacks.
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  #55  
Old 03-07-2007, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I really think the way this was brought up on the other thread was highly rude and could have been done in a much more mature way.
I couldn't agree more.

This whole thread smacked of a personal attack. While I am not into Rottweilers, I did a minimal amount of research last night and found that many breeders have bred DJD1 rotties. One such rottie breeding was announced on the Rottweiler.net forum and their was nothing but praise for this breeder.

Just seems rather snide to me. If concern was geniunely for the breed, this could have been handled in a MUCH more educational and civil manner rather than a backhanded attempt at smearing Red's name.
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  #56  
Old 03-07-2007, 10:55 AM
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My last post on this discussion. There is way more to the whole story than meet's the eye.

If you do a search and read ALL of my posts they 98 % of the time are geared towards rescue, animal abuse, etc. With that comes the health of dogs being bred. I have concerns that I am not alone in. Everyone has their own opinion and is entitled to it. Like I stated before, maybe my standards are higher than others because I see the problems every single day, I know of breeders who do not breed dogs that have a close history of DJD. So I know it can and is being done, without problems.

I also wanted to mention that even though I disagree with this breeding I in no way want to discredit Redyre's training ability. I believe she is a valuable resource to this board in that regard.
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  #57  
Old 03-07-2007, 11:10 AM
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Since the original poster was Redy to J's Crew and both have stated their last posts , I see no reason for this to continue here .
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