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Old 07-31-2006, 08:09 PM
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AusCatDogs_4Ever AusCatDogs_4Ever is offline
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Question Confused about corn.

I've read on other threads that you should stay away from "Ground Yellow Corn". This is in Eagle Pack's Original Adult. I wanted to ask them about it, but then I noticed they had it in their FAQ's, here is what they have to say:

Quote:
Fillers

Q:What are ‘fillers?

A: The answer to that can lead to big arguments. We look at wheat mids and peanut hulls as fillers. Some pet owners consider grains/carbohydrates as fillers. They are not ‘fillers’ if formulated correctly, i.e. not listed first in the ingredient panel. Used correctly, carbohydrates provide necessary energy. Corn is a natural source of Omega 6 fatty acids. However grocery brands and one so-called premium brand overuse corn incorrectly as a cheap protein source.
More info about their corn:

Quote:
Corn (Whole Ground)

Corn is an ideal ingredient when used correctly in a formula. It is 99% digestible, an excellent energy source, and one of the best natural Omega 6 fatty acid sources.

Carbohydrates are used in pet food primarily to provide energy. Energy is required for the central nervous system, normal and high levels of physical activity and is also needed when anabolic activities like gestation, lactation and growth are proceeding at a high rate. With little or no dietary carbohydrates available there is added strain on fat and protein. This extra burden on fats and proteins can cause serious problems at birthing time.(1) Judicious use of carbohydrates in a meat meal based formula, i.e. corn, not listed first on the ingredient panel is a nutritionally sound and healthy use of corn and other quality carbohydrates.

(1) Hypoglycemia prior to welping, reduced plasma concentrations, reduced number of live births, lethargy, reduced mothering ability, fetal abnormalities, embryo resorption and reduced milk production.

It Is Not A Filler...
While we believe in meat meal based diets, meaning meat meal should be listed first on the ingredient panel, corn makes an important nutritional contribution to the formula, as noted above; fillers, such as wheat mids and peanut hulls, do not.

Rarely Does Corn Cause Allergies...
A complete literature review shows that corn is rarely incriminated as causing allergies. "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" addresses this twice: "There have been only six confirmed cases of allergy to corn in dogs reported in the veterinary literature out of 253 total cases." "Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for healthy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn."

A Very Digestible Carbohydrate...
One pet food company that does not have ready access to corn states, rather crudely, that look how corn comes out after we eat corn on the cob and therefore it can't be very digestible. This company knows full well that corn is ground very finely before it is added to the pet food formula. According to "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition", 4th Edition, "Several reports (3) indicate that dogs and cats readily digest starches in commercial pet foods. In studies, dogs were fed foods in which 30 to 57% of the food came from extruded corn, barley, rice or oats. The starch was nearly 100% digested in the small intestine."

It is difficult to do the math because some base numbers are not available, but probably only one dog out of several hundred thousand dogs are likely to be allergic to corn when used correctly in a Super Premium, meat meal-based diet. With an ingredient that quality research shows to be an excellent ingredient, why would you not want to feed it as the carbohydrate component in the diet?
Is their information true? Is their corn O.K. for dogs to eat? It sure sounds like it, but people always say to stay away from corn... I'm so confused.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:36 PM
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Generally speaking, corn is no worse for dogs than other grains - as long as the dog isn't allergic to corn specifically.

It is true that you don't want corn ingredients as a main source of protein (e.g. as first ingredient), which is the case with many cheap, poor quality foods. As a source of carbs, present in reasonable amounts, it is fine.

The widespread claims that corn is always a poor quality filler, dogs can't digest it and that it should be avoided at all costs are bogus.

Eagle Pack uses high quality corn, not the feed grade stuff that's commonly used for cattle.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:40 PM
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Thank you Mordy. I was a little worried.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:51 PM
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I had a vet explain to me once that some non-digestible roughage is good for the workings of the system...the colon etc. So some grain which might pass through them, even if it weren't chalk full of nutrition is apparently a good thing. But I agree that is shouldn't be in excessive amounts....at the expense of ample protein and other elements. I would guess that some good corn would be a good thing because it does have some good elements and they probably get some of that. It sure kept the pilgrims alive in the harsh climates at Plymouth Rock. LOL.

What have been your findings on that Mordy?
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:04 PM
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auscat,

good read, thanks. my post is mostly with regards to skin problems that seem to be related to diet.

my dogs are pretty sensitive to a lot of high quality kibbles, and most recently even to innova. i really really wanted to go to eagle pack holistic, but since i needed a large breed puppy formula (EP doesn't make one in holistic blend) i was kind of stuck since i desparately wanted to avoid corn and choices for large breed puppy formulas with minimal grain products are pretty limited. after going through plan A, B, and C, i took the plunge and started my boy on the EP large breed puppy formula that does include corn. I've been feeding him for a week, and he has none of the itching and break-outs that he did on other foods. so like mordy says, i guess corn isn't so bad if your dog tolerates it well. as long as my dog doesn't react aversely to it, then i don't have a huge problem with a little corn as long as i believe in the overall quality of the kibble.

long story short, my dog has seemed to have skin reactions to high-end kibbles without grain, but the EP with corn gives him no problems.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:10 PM
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Two of the foods I feed don't have any corn in them at all. Innova evo and Natural balance. Although I believe Natural Balance has some other types of grain in it, I'll have to find the ingredients. I mix both the dry formulas together in one storage bin to give Cai variety and I also just started him on Nupro supplements with Glucosamine and chronditin. I think the corn in eagle pack such as Mordy stated is higher quality. Although, I always was under the impression that it wasn't the greatest ingredient. Good post Aus cause I have always been confused about corn to LOL!
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:13 PM
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They say corn is good for high energy/working breeds and Charlie hasn't had any problems with it, just improvments, so I guess I'll stick with it!
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:18 PM
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I feed Lyric Natural Balance venison and brown rice. The other dogs can eat Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul and sometimes the Natural Balance. Lyric has a "sensative" digestive system and gets very loose stools unless he's on a single source protein. I haven't gotten my nerve up yet to do raw.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:28 PM
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How much of a grain is digestible depends mainly on the type and how processed it is. Finely ground and heat treated (extruded/baked) like in commercial dog food it is pretty digestible, unlike raw corn on the cob or whole kernels.

And since I'm a hopeless nutrition geek, here's a nutrient comparison of yellow corn and unenriched white rice, both in their uncooked forms, as per USDA SR18:

Code:
Vitamins		Corn	White Rice
A (IU) 			214	0
E (IU)			1.34	0.15
B1  (mcg)		400	100
B2  (mcg)		200	0
B5  (mcg)		400	1000
B3 (mcg)		3600	1600
B6 (mcg)		600	200
B9 (mcg)		19	8
B12 (mcg)		0	0
		
Minerals (mg)		
Calcium			7	28
Phosphorus		210	115
Magnesium		127	25
Sodium			35	5
Potassium		287	115
Iron			2.7	0.8
Copper			0.3	0.2
Zinc			2.2	1.1
Manganese		0.5	1.1
Selenium (mcg)		15.5	15.1

Protein %		9.4	7.1
Fat %			4.7	0.7
Fiber %			7.3	1.3
Glycemic Load		21	25
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:08 AM
dogstarsleddogs dogstarsleddogs is offline
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My food has corn as #2, and really, I dont have a problem with it in that spot. Eagle Pack, IMO, is a very good dog food company (mainly for their extensive support of dog mushing), and I would have no hesitiation using a food from them if I could.
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