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Old 07-11-2006, 07:38 AM
Chrissy&B Chrissy&B is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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I have to say that when I'm looking for a new pup, I always go to a breeder that shows his dogs. Why? Because that way I know that the dogs he breeds are good examples of the breed and more importantly, they're well socialized with great temperaments. I am showing my Chihuahua and believe me that if he was showing any signs of aggression he'd be sent out of the ring. The same goes for his breeder's dogs (where I bought him). I have seen too many badly bred Chihuahuas that are nervous and very aggressive, not to mention that they look nothing like the breed anyway, so believe me that I'm always going to buy from a reputable breeder that shows his dogs......
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:01 PM
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Boxerowner Boxerowner is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 240

Originally Posted by wolfsoul
I don't think it's okay just to breed a dog because it is titled or because it's a Champion.

Look at some examples of breeders I know:

Breeder #1:
Has 10 champions.
Titles on some of her dogs include: CD, CGN, TG-N, TN-N, CGC, RN, CL1-R, CL1-H, CL1-S, PCD, TT, AGX, SMADC, MADC, NGC, TG-N, WV-N, AGI, ADC,

If someone is focused on titles they may think she is a good breeder. This breeder bred two dogs that she knew both carried the gene for cleft palates. Four of the puppies were born with cleft palates. She let them starve to death. This breeder used to work where I am. She was fired because she was incredibly abusive to the dogs. In agility class she would pinch her dogs when she thought no one was looking. The only reason 8 of the 10 dogs she has got their CH is because she enters lots of her dogs in one show and pins them up against eachother so that if one of her dogs wins, which it usually did because she was the only one with the breed, it would get more points. Her dogs are ugly as hell. In one show, a judge actually said "none of these dogs deserve ribbons" and excused them all from the ring. In another show, the judge asked why there were 2 of the same breed in the group ring -- well, one was the right breed -- he mistook her dog for that breed too!

Breeder #2

All six of her dogs are CH, some both Am/Can CH.
Titles include: CD, CGC, HIC, BPD, VCX, ROMX, HT, PT, TT

Titles look awesome. All of her dogs are champions. 3 of her 6 dogs also have collie eye anomoly. Some of them are slightly micropthalmic (not enough for the judges to notice, but who knows what they produce). 4 of her dogs are MDR1 carriers. She was recently disqualified from a show for kicking one of her clients' dogs down a hill. I've heard horror stories (and experienced one myself with my own dog and this breeder) of dogs going to a show with her and then never being showable again. I've talked to one person who says they've seen her kick a dog in the ribs, and another person who says they saw her throw a client dog down and hit it repeatedly for barking.

I can name a dozen more cases like these.

Now, I also don't find it okay to breed just for pets.

Breeder #1:

Bred their goldens as "pets." Because the dogs were just pets, they didn't research the pedigree. Turns out the dogs were full-siblings. Every puppy in that litter was COMPLETELY INSANE. These were golden retrievers that would sooner rip your face off than look at you. I believe only one of the puppies wasn't put to sleep.

Breeder #2:

Bred their chi/pom mix and their chihuahua. They just wanted to make cute little pets. I know two of the dogs from this litter. One of them is getting surgery to fix his luxating pattellas. The other has some disease the vets can't even figure out.

In other words, I don't think that people should be breeding for show, and I don't think they should be breeding for pets. They should be breeding for the ALL-AROUND DOG. Breed for show, breed for pet, breed for health and temperment and working ability and soundness of body and mind. Love your dogs, take care of your dogs, call your breeding program a hobby but treat it like it's your life and your passion. People focus too much one one factor. "Well this breeder titles their dogs." "This breeder health certifies." "All of this breeder's dogs are champions." Look at the whole picture....

Fantastic post!

I have seen a lot of abuse at shows.
~Bratcher's Boxers~
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:05 PM
Squidbert's Avatar
Squidbert Squidbert is offline
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Agreed! Fantastic post Wolfsoul.. What I've been trying to get across but somehow wasn't able to..

Thanks BP!! I LOVE it!! I'VE BEEN FROSTED! I have been befriended by Buddy'sParents! YAY!

Breathless, we flung us on a windy hill,
Laughed in the sun, and kissed the lovely grass.
~Rupert Brooke

Nature hates calculators.
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To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug.
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:47 PM
JFrick JFrick is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted by Momof2Pups
I've seen so many people on here claim that the only valid reason for breeding dogs is if they're "show quality" or "champions" or "perfect specimens of the breed." But why is that ok? How is that any better than breeding pets? Yes, it guarantees they are sound and stuff like that, but I don't see why people focus on that. What great benifit does showing have for the world? I just can't see why some people are so stuffy about why "faultless" dogs are "better" to breed. People can be adopting a pure bred dog from a shelter instead of bringing more into the world, even if they are "breed champions."
Exactly. That's what all my ranting and raving was about in the other thread about ethics...I don't get why people think that a dog is only worth owning if it's a "champion".
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:21 PM
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I could be wrong but I don't think people were saying that dogs were not worth owning if they weren't champions. I think they were saying that you should not breed them if they weren't champions (which I disagree with). But I know lots of breeders that show their dogs and are very responsible and (since we have been using this word so much), "ethical" that own non-purebred dogs or dogs that are "not up to standard". But like I said, I never read ALL the stuff in the other thread, so I could be wrong about what people are thinking.

Another thing I would like to point out (because I have seen a lot of people JUST ask if the dog is registered), is that even if a dog is registered it does not guarantee that it is purebred. A breeder needs to have the whole package, like everything that was posted in the other thread. If they JUST register their dogs and do nothing else, I would never buy I dog from them.

Using myself for example (NOT SAYING THAT I HAVE OR WILL EVER DO THIS) but I breed Pomeranians & Chihuahuas. I could breed my female pom to my male chi and end up with a bunch of puppies that LOOK like purebred poms, and since CKC and AKC does not really regulate things I could register them by saying that it was my male pom that bred my female pom and sell registered mixed breed dogs. So people please, when you are buying a dog, just because it's registered does not mean that they are purebred. Make sure that the breeder has everything that was listed in the other post (except maybe the titling) as I do not see a need for that all the time. There are bybs out there that register their dogs and sell you a dog that may not be what you think you are getting.

Im not sure if I should have posted this here but I had to get it off my chest.
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:58 PM
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GSDlover_4ever GSDlover_4ever is offline
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People can be adopting a pure bred dog from a shelter instead of bringing more into the world, even if they are "breed champions."
I'm sorry but I will NOT allow a few irresponsible people get in my way of getting a quality bred dog. Now, I am not into conformation but it goes the same way for working dogs as well. I adopt and foster dogs as well, but I also want a quality bred dog for working sports. If I am looking for a new working dog I will NOT settle for onr in the shelter, sorry.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:20 PM
Crotalus Crotalus is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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A very close friend of mine does search and rescue. Our first attempt at training a dog from the pound for SAR didn't go so well. She was extremely adept, but had some psychological issues and would randomly snap at elderly people. Then she started snapping at other random people. We had to take her to several trainers to try and determine why, but since no one could figure out what was triggering it, or what she had been exposed to before we got her we couldn't train her out of it reliably enough to justify sending her out on the field on a search. There had to be NO chance whatsoever that she would snap at someone on a search, so she went to live with a family we knew.

Next pound puppy was much better, an 8 week old GSD that we later realized was just happened to be from extremely high quality working lines. Talk about a coincidence! Dogs like that don't go the the pound everyday, and I'm sure that was a once in a lifetime find. She has the eyes, hips, work ethic, everything. She is now a fully certified search dog with a heart of gold.

For work like SAR, puppy socialization, conditioning, and evaluation needs to start practically at birth. You really need to buy a puppy that has been bred from working lines, preferably SAR lines to get all the crucial ingredients that tend to be missing from most dogs, even titled champions, today. Those would be sound body and health, impeccable temperment, high reward drive, and extreme focus on human beings. They don't have to be purebred. My aunt has a GSD SAR dog, who was bred to a SAR GSD, neither were titled, I think only the male was even registered as a GSD. Her dog is probably a mix, she's blond and has long hair, one ear flops, and she tops out around 45 lbs. If she is purebred, she would never win any shows that's for sure! Was my aunt wrong to breed her? Heck no! 5 out of the six puppies are fully certified for SAR now, and Curly, the lazy one is a companion pet for her family. All are healthy and have great temperments. I think it would have been a good idea for her to breed her dog to even a doberman or something if it would have produced the same result, healthy, happy, hardworking SAR dogs that may save someone's life some day.

Sorry for the long post, just had to rant about this.
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