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  #11  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:19 PM
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I understand what you are saying, and I agree. I really think a lot of it is in how you say it. Most people here definitely have info, but sometimes the delivery needs work.

I'm definitely guilty of this and I really have no good excuse for it. I'm passionate about dogs and I get fired up easily (is being Italian any excuse? ) but it's still no reason to attack people and push them away. I am thick skinned, insults and flames usually do not get to me and because of that I can be terribly blunt at times.. I don't expect people to take things to heart. I need to work on that, lol

The people here are wonderful, they care very deeply for dogs and nobody likes to hear of dogs being neglected or mistreated. When we do hear of that, sometimes we get fired up and though I can't speak for other people, I don't always think before I post. I need to work on that, too.

But, yes, good post and good point. If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit. I know I am a far better dog owner now than I was before I joined 2 years ago.
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:28 PM
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Good Post and agree. I try not to bash and don't like being bashed but have been . I'm tough and it really does not matter to me. I like to get info here and others views but have noticed alot of threads turning into a fire storm and just opt out of them.
I have chosen not to answer some threads as the content upsets me so I stay out of it .
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RD
I understand what you are saying, and I agree. I really think a lot of it is in how you say it. Most people here definitely have info, but sometimes the delivery needs work.

I'm definitely guilty of this and I really have no good excuse for it. I'm passionate about dogs and I get fired up easily (is being Italian any excuse? ) but it's still no reason to attack people and push them away. I am thick skinned, insults and flames usually do not get to me and because of that I can be terribly blunt at times.. I don't expect people to take things to heart. I need to work on that, lol

The people here are wonderful, they care very deeply for dogs and nobody likes to hear of dogs being neglected or mistreated. When we do hear of that, sometimes we get fired up and though I can't speak for other people, I don't always think before I post. I need to work on that, too.

But, yes, good post and good point. If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit. I know I am a far better dog owner now than I was before I joined 2 years ago.
Absolutely! Thats a wonderful paraphrase. I Love it! "If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit"
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Red
Good Post and agree. I try not to bash and don't like being bashed but have been . I'm tough and it really does not matter to me. I like to get info here and others views but have noticed alot of threads turning into a fire storm and just opt out of them.
exactly what I would do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Red
I have chosen not to answer some threads as the content upsets me so I stay out of it .
Yep... sometimes staying out of something is the best you can do. and if it's better than pushing someone away and possibly hurting their puppy... its definately the best choice!

I think that if people learned that they arent *personally* responsible for replying to every (for example) potty training problem, they wouldnt get so irate. But when they obligate themselves to doing it it becomes work... and nobody likes work... especially when they feel like they're not getting anything baack from it... thats when it gets really nasty...
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:36 PM
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As a first time puppy parent I can tell you that when I have to ask for help because I cant handle whats going on (which happens more than I'd like to admit) I feel *exactly like a new puppy who cant do anything right... and on top of that if you're in a new place where everyones yelling at you... well... "screw that" is what I would say (and a lot of people do, I'm sure)

It'd be like going to the vet the first time your dog got sick... you're scared to death... you didnt realize that being lethargic was *BAD* you thought your puppy was just having a lazy day... now hes throwing up and you feel like the worst failure of a parent that ever graced te face of the planet... and the vet tells you to give up now because you'll never add up to a good puppy owner.

Thats a *VERY* vulnerable moment for someone who cares... and a response like that... right then... crushing!!
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemitriousK
If you work to correct without condemning and alienating people then you will truly have a shot at making this world a better place by righting one wrong idea at a time. If you, however, can only be abrasive... well... how many people do *you* spend time with that constantly get on *your* nerves?
Not sure if you're referring to any of my posts but I'll bite...I'm definitely someone who practices and whole heartedly believes in non-aversive training techniques.
I think that it depends on the circumstance. I sit almost daily in the homes of people who, sometimes bravely, admit to having smacked, yanked and pinched their dogs in an attempt to have them comply. In all, and I do mean all without exception, of these cases I take a deep breath and proceed to counsel them without showing judgement. I'm painfully aware that my ability to help a dog is absolutely dependant on gaining the trust of the owners and showing them understanding and compassion, even if it is at times totally insincere on my part.
There have been times where, on this forum, I'm beyond exasberated with the lack of belief in a technique void of violence that I use successfully every day. It's not at all the genuine lack of knowledge that gets me going, it's the "in your face" approach to arguing FOR the use of physical punishment. I've also been accused of being arrogant for my committment to not using these methods. I've had youngsters with no bases for their arguements call me into question on my experience and education. I've resigned myself to answering training questions through PM so as to avoid having to deal with the posts advising the use of physical "stuff" to solve everything from nipping to obedience non-compliance. Oh and believe me, the PM's that I've gotten for not wanting to hurt dogs during training would melt your computer keys..

You may want to look at the flip side of this issue before reserving judgement yourself. I've even been "wrist slapped" by someone (with obvious "short comings" himself) defending a youngster on here who is clearly just looking to argue while making himself feel OK about what he does to his dog/s...(note - no names used )
I was pretty shocked when I first joined. I really thought that all dog lovers would want to know that training without physical correction really works. I will never go back to a day when we (trainers) used the rough stuff, why would I entertain the idea that it's effective "in some cases" when I know from experience that it's unnecessary. Been there...done that...will never "revert"!
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:57 PM
corsomom corsomom is offline
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Thankyou for this post. I know I have been guilty of this and it does make me think.I know I posted something to someone and regreted it right away knowing I wasnt helping the problem.
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2006, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
Not sure if you're referring to any of my posts but I'll bite...I'm definitely someone who practices and whole heartedly believes in non-aversive training techniques.
Actually I didnt (and dont plan to) bother looking at the names of the people who i've seen who set me on this rant. I'm not trying to be hall monitor, and it wouldnt get me anywhere anyhow. Unfortunately the people who will listen will listen a the people who wont wont. Maybe I'll get through to one or two people who would otherwise be abrasive and might not now. Thats enough for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
I think that it depends on the circumstance. I sit almost daily in the homes of people who, sometimes bravely, admit to having smacked, yanked and pinched their dogs in an attempt to have them comply. In all, and I do mean all without exception, of these cases I take a deep breath and proceed to counsel them without showing judgement.
I bet that, in most cases, this calm and non combative attitude that you take works too! By simply asking they've admitted that they dont know and need help and that you might know better than they do. If you were harsh about it... They'd probably find someone else, wouldnt they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
I'm painfully aware that my ability to help a dog is absolutely dependant on gaining the trust of the owners and showing them understanding and compassion, even if it is at times totally insincere on my part.
There have been times where, on this forum, I'm beyond exasberated with the lack of belief in a technique void of violence that I use successfully every day. It's not at all the genuine lack of knowledge that gets me going, it's the "in your face" approach to arguing FOR the use of physical punishment. I've also been accused of being arrogant for my committment to not using these methods. I've had youngsters with no bases for their arguements call me into question on my experience and education.
Thats exactly the kind of put off I've seen and am commenting about. Its not a good feeling to be condemned, put down, and put down as irrevokably and unarguably wrong. And if they ever wanted to share advice with you in the future I highly doubt you'd take it (even if it were good advice) because they didnt know how to deal with people who's views were different from their own.

Luckily you have a firm foundation in your knowledge, beliefe, and methods. But if you didnt feel deep down that you were right... would you have stayed in the face of such arrogance/ignorance/combativeness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
I've resigned myself to answering training questions through PM so as to avoid having to deal with the posts advising the use of physical "stuff" to solve everything from nipping to obedience non-compliance. Oh and believe me, the PM's that I've gotten for not wanting to hurt dogs during training would melt your computer keys..

You may want to look at the flip side of this issue before reserving judgement yourself. I've even been "wrist slapped" by someone (with obvious "short comings" himself) defending a youngster on here who is clearly just looking to argue while making himself feel OK about what he does to his dog/s...(note - no names used )
Yea... there is a definate difference between ignorance and meanspiritedness... :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
I was pretty shocked when I first joined. I really thought that all dog lovers would want to know that training without physical correction really works. I will never go back to a day when we (trainers) used the rough stuff, why would I entertain the idea that it's effective "in some cases" when I know from experience that it's unnecessary. Been there...done that...will never "revert"!
I've been shocked while reading some things on here myself. Its gratifying to know that I'm not the only one! Thanks for sharing!
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2006, 09:01 PM
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I think the main problem is that we aren't speaking face to face with the person and so we can't tell their tone of voice. What may be simply trying to help can accidently be worded in a way that wouldn't sound mean if it had the right tone to it but we can't tell the tone so we take it personally.
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  #20  
Old 07-07-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsomom
Thankyou for this post. I know I have been guilty of this and it does make me think.I know I posted something to someone and regreted it right away knowing I wasnt helping the problem.

Guilty myself... In a different place, time and medium... Guilty myself :/ But being wrong in the past is not something one can change... and we might not always change things in the future... but if we take the time to think about who we are and how we behave... and it causes even the effort to be a better person... It was worth having thought about

Very self aware... and brave... to admit something like that. I appreciate it!
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