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Old 04-02-2014, 10:17 AM
Eleonora Eleonora is offline
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Default Teaching take and drop to energetic dog

My friend has a young Cavalier King Charles spaniel, Lotta, and she needs advice for how to teach her to take and drop on cue. She would like to use play as a reward but her dog should first learn to take and drop on cue. She would also like to teach Lotta tricks and in some of them dog should know how to take and drop on cue. My friend has not been able to teach her dog for a while because the thing she tried didn't work.

My friend tried to teach Lotta to drop in the way it's done in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQ8umLaTpI At first Lotta got really excited about the toy but when she gave Lotta treat, Lotta was already taking the toy back before eating it completely. After she had done this few times, Lotta didn't want to take the toy anymore. Lotta behaves the same way no matter what kind of toy it is. My friend says it's difficult to find an object that isn't Lotta's toy, Lotta doesn't see it as a toy and that she is willing to take. My friend can't use a piece of clothing because Lotta sometimes steales them and plays with them.

In another forum someone suggested this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5phL604aZDA
In this video take and drop is teached in the same way, but my friend doesn't understand how they are teached for dog in practise. It doesn't matter which behavior my friend tries to teach for Lotta. Lotta still behaves the same way as told. When my friend tries to teach them for Lotta, Lotta behaves the same way as the dog in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rCI5YDCAE

When my friend tried to teach that to Lotta like in the first video, Lotta got too excited about her toy and behaved the same way as I told. The dog in the first video is more calm than Lotta although that dog is just a puppy. That puppy eats her treat nicely and waits patiently her toy and she's not taking it by herself like Lotta does.

There is the same problem with Donna Hill's video. She trains service dogs and two of her dogs are suitable for that sort of work. Those dogs know how to work. When my friend tries to teach Lotta to drop it, Lotta gets so excited that she won't notice or understand that my friend tries to teach her something.

My friend uses a clicker. She uses it because her dog sometimes moves so fast and she wouldn't otherwise have enough time to reward her dog when she does something right. Otherwise it is sometimes hard to reward her dog because she reacts differently to speach and a click. Also my friend has read earlier that in clicker training the verbal cue is not used before the dog knows the behavior. She thinks that she cannot name the behavior immeadiately at the beginning because of this:
1) When her dog does it at the beginning, it doesn't look similar as the end behavior.

2) This is not only about training sessions: when Lotta is playing with a toy, she is concentrating on it so much that she may not notice that one is saying something. In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta.

We have a thread where we can discuss about Lotta's training and behavior. You may want to check it out.

We have long time tried to find out and ask around what my friend could try next since what she first tried didn't work out. My friend was given some suggestions but we never found out would they work out or how they could be applied with Lotta. Those people never anwered to some of the questions about the suggestions.

One of the things is to teach take and drop via leave it. It may not work because there are too many unknown parts in that way.

One of the things is to reward with another toy. It doesn't work with Lotta because of this: my friend uses a clicker and she cannot use a verbal praise/marker. She needs to hold a clicker in one hand and a toy in another so that Lotta can't run away with it. That's why it would be difficult to throw another toy. Besides, Lotta would start to play with it and would not drop it. In other words, my friend has not enough hands for it.

Following suggestion is the best one so far. This is what someone elsewhere told my friend to do with a clicker: ask with verbal cue Lotta to take a toy. After some time ask her to drop it and as a reward give that same toy back to Lotta. My friend would keep doing it for a little while and at the last time she would reward with a treat.

However, that person suggested to use verbal cues right from the beginning. Like we told, that doesn't work with Lotta. So, the question is now does it work also in this way/in this order?: Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them? So that she would teach them before naming them? If someone could answer to the question here, my friend could try it next.

Does someone have other suggestions of what my friend could do?
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2014, 10:50 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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nvrm I didn't read the whole post
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:57 AM
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Honestly, the way I've gotten my dogs to drop their toy when asked was to hold onto the toy and not move. If they tried to tug, I'd let go immediately (I'd act like I was a really weak person and they'd just pull it out of my hand with no resistance). Then they'd hand it to me again and I'd grab it without wiggling it or trying to take it away. They'd pull back...I'd let go. After so many repetitions they'd finally spit the toy out in disgust like, "Fine, don't play with me, jerk." When that happened, I'd immediately get excited and engage them with the toy again. They quickly figured out that me grabbing the toy and then stilling all movement meant for them to spit out the toy to keep the game going.

I don't even introduce a verbal command until after the dog is spitting the toy out via my "stilling" signal.

If, however, the dog isn't trying to engage in play via tug and is just HOLDING the object, I'd probably do something similar. I'd grab it, distract with a treat or other item, and as soon as the dog spits out what is in their mouth to get the higher valued object, I'd act like a happy loon and engage them again with what they were holding. (Unless it was something dangerous/something they really couldn't play with - then I'd engage them with a new safe awesome play toy).

But, that's just me and I really don't care about a formal "drop it" where the dog spits out what it is holding at my feet. I just want the dog to let go of an object when I grab it if I'm not engaging them in tug.
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Old 04-02-2014, 12:08 PM
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Sekah Sekah is offline
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I like this method for teaching a drop. You start with food, create an automatic and enthusiastic response, and then you can move on to other objects.



When it comes to naming cues, in general you want to get the behaviour first, then give it a name. Otherwise any words you use to apply to the behaviour become white noise right off the bat.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but it sounds like you need to work more on conditioning the dog to recognizing a verbal marker as well as a click. Clickers are awesome but sometimes they're cumbersome and it's convenient if you can switch back and forth between the two at will.
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:38 AM
Eleonora Eleonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekah View Post
it sounds like you need to work more on conditioning the dog to recognizing a verbal marker as well as a click...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
My friend uses a clicker. She uses it because her dog sometimes moves so fast and she wouldn't otherwise have enough time to reward her dog when she does something right. Otherwise it is sometimes hard to reward her dog because she reacts differently to speach and a click. .../

/...This is not only about training sessions: when Lotta is playing with a toy, she is concentrating on it so much that she may not notice that one is saying something....//...she cannot use a verbal praise/marker.
Someone sometimes suggested the same tutorial. It doesn't work with Lotta besides the trainer uses strange way and order to teach drop it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekah View Post
I like this method for teaching a drop...//...


When it comes to naming cues, in general you want to get the behaviour first, then give it a name. Otherwise any words you use to apply to the behaviour become white noise right off the bat.
The trainer uses the cue already at the beginning. It wouldn't work even without the cues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
My friend has not been able to teach her dog for a while because the thing she tried didn't work.

My friend tried to teach Lotta to drop...//...Lotta got really excited about the toy but when she gave Lotta treat, Lotta was already taking the toy back before eating it completely...//...Lotta behaves the same way no matter what kind of toy it is. My friend says it's difficult to find an object that isn't Lotta's toy, Lotta doesn't see it as a toy and that she is willing to take. My friend can't use a piece of clothing because Lotta sometimes steales them and plays with them.../

/...Lotta behaves the same way as the dog in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rCI5YDCAE.../

/...When my friend tries to teach Lotta to drop it, Lotta gets so excited that she won't notice or understand that my friend tries to teach her something.../

/...One of the things is to reward with another toy. It doesn't work with Lotta because of this: my friend uses a clicker and she cannot use a verbal praise/marker. She needs to hold a clicker in one hand and a toy in another so that Lotta can't run away with it. That's why it would be difficult to throw another toy. Besides, Lotta would start to play with it and would not drop it. In other words, my friend has not enough hands for it.
That's why my friend cannot do what you told:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
Honestly, the way I've gotten my dogs to drop their toy when asked was to hold onto the toy and not move. If they tried to tug, I'd let go immediately (I'd act like I was a really weak person and they'd just pull it out of my hand with no resistance)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
Following suggestion is the best one so far. This is what someone elsewhere told my friend to do with a clicker: ask with verbal cue Lotta to take a toy. After some time ask her to drop it and as a reward give that same toy back to Lotta. My friend would keep doing it for a little while and at the last time she would reward with a treat.
My friend wants to add that the person told also to click when Lotta does those behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekah View Post
...any words you use to apply to the behaviour become white noise right off the bat.
That's the reason why my friend is not sure how to apply it with Lotta.
(The person never answered to the question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
However, that person suggested to use verbal cues right from the beginning. Like we told, that doesn't work with Lotta. So, the question is now does it work also in this way/in this order?: Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them? So that she would teach them before naming them?
If someone could answer to the question, my friend could try it next.


Does someone have other suggestions of what my friend could do?
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Old 04-04-2014, 10:56 AM
krissy krissy is offline
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I haven't read through everything but to me it depends on what your purpose for give and take is. Is it to play a game? Or is it for convenience? What I mean is... does your friend want to play a nice game of tug and fetch or does she want to be able to remove items from the dog's mouth if she picks something inappropriate up?

If this is in order to enjoy playing with the dog then I encourage the intense interest in the toy. I want it. And THEN I teach the dog to give it back. This may require prying it out of the dog's mouth at first, but for us I was able to just keep gentle pressure on the toy until she released it herself. I then gave the toy back instead of giving a food reward (but my dog is generally more food motivated than toy motivated and if given food would probably tend to forget about the toy). To teach the dog to take the toy when told... I dangled the toy out in front of her. If she grabbed for it I pulled it out of her reach until she settled down. Then I dangled it in front of her again and if she resisted even for a split second I would tell her "take it!" and play tug with her... and we just slowly built up the time so that now I can swing the toy around and dangle it right in front her nose until I say "take it". When I want it back now I just maintain a little pressure on the toy and tell her "off".
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Old 04-04-2014, 11:30 AM
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Greenmagick Greenmagick is offline
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I admit I am tired, but I am confused by this post too.

I would hazard a guess that the actual methods are not being implemented properly, not that the dog cant learn that way.

That drop video posted here is my absolute favorite.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
I admit I am tired, but I am confused by this post too.

I would hazard a guess that the actual methods are not being implemented properly, not that the dog cant learn that way.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:10 AM
Eleonora Eleonora is offline
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We are going to try to answer to the messages/questions. You can tell us if there is still something you don't understand. First of all, we had told that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
My friend has not been able to teach her dog for a while because the thing she tried didn't work.....//....We have long time tried to find out and ask around what my friend could try next since what she first tried didn't work out...
It was the only thing what my friend had tried. My friend has not been sure what she could try next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
I would hazard a guess that the actual methods are not being implemented properly, not that the dog cant learn that way.

That drop video posted here is my absolute favorite.
There are many reasons why the method in the domesticated manners tutorial is not suitable:
The trainer teaches drop it partly for a different purpose there than my friend would like to.
See more below. He also teaches the dog to drop food/treats. He tries to get the dog to be calm when you are present although he is eating food/treats.

It is not a clicker training tutorial. My friend is looking for such. We have told that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
My friend uses a clicker...../
/.....She thinks that she cannot name the behavior immeadiately at the beginning because of this:
1) When her dog does it at the beginning, it doesn't look similar as the end behavior.
2) This is not only about training sessions: Lotta often concentrates on something else (in this case on playing with a toy) and behaves sometimes like no one has said anything and like she wouldn't "hear" anything like those dogs in this video:


So, Lotta may not notice that one is saying something. In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta. Note: Lotta is not deaf although she behaves like she was.

My friend suspects that if she would use that method in the domesticated manners tutorial her dog would associate the cue to that my friend gives her something - not that the dog gives my friend something. Besides, the trainer uses the drop cue already at the beginning.

In the domesticated manners tutorial, the trainer also uses a strange way and an order to teach drop it. He is throwing treats to the dog in it although the dog doesn't have anything. When the trainer pauses throwing the treats, the dog waits patiently them. My friend tried it in order to see how Lotta reacts. Lotta started to act silly and to peg the treats. My friend wasn't actually training Lotta.

When the trainer eventually did add toys to the behavior, he did get his dog to interested also in treats.
Like we have told, it didn't work so well with treats:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
My friend tried to teach Lotta to drop in the way it's done in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQ8umLaTpI At first Lotta got really excited about the toy but when she gave Lotta treat, Lotta was already taking the toy back before eating it completely. After she had done this few times, Lotta didn't want to take the toy anymore. Lotta behaves the same way no matter what kind of toy it is. My friend says it's difficult to find an object that isn't Lotta's toy, Lotta doesn't see it as a toy and that she is willing to take. My friend can't use a piece of clothing because Lotta sometimes steales them and plays with them....../

/......When my friend tries to teach Lotta, Lotta behaves the same way as the dog in this video:

When my friend tried to teach that to Lotta like in the first video, Lotta got too excited about her toy and behaved the same way as told. The dog in the first video is more calm than Lotta although that dog is just a puppy. That puppy eats her treat nicely and waits patiently her toy and she's not taking it by herself like Lotta does.
There is the same problem with the domesticated manners tutorial. The dog in it knows how to work. When my friend tries to teach Lotta to drop it, Lotta gets so excited that she won't notice or understand that my friend tries to teach her something.
To be continued....
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:31 AM
Eleonora Eleonora is offline
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To be continued...
Now we get to this question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by krissy View Post
I haven't read through everything but to me it depends on what your purpose for give and take is. Is it to play a game? Or is it for convenience? What I mean is... does your friend want to play a nice game of tug and fetch or does she want to be able to remove items from the dog's mouth if she picks something inappropriate up?

My friend's purpose for them is this:

In contrast to the tutorial, my friend is not teaching Lotta to drop food/ treats. We had told that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
She would like to use play as a reward but her dog should first learn to take and drop on cue. She would also like to teach Lotta tricks and in some of them dog should know how to take and drop on cue.
My friend would first like to use play as a reward besides only treats. She would like to use different kind of toys for it like in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnJ7dwnSwo

My friend doesn't otherwise like his methods (he speaks too much and...) but that video shows the point. That's why Lotta should be teached to drop toys on cue. So, she should also be teached to take them on cue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krissy View Post
If this is in order to enjoy playing with the dog then I encourage the intense interest in the toy. I want it. And THEN I teach the dog to give it back...//... I then gave the toy back instead of giving a food reward...//... To teach the dog to take the toy when told... I dangled the toy out in front of her....//.... I would tell her "take it!" and play tug with her..

That's the way how the person adviced to teach them
who gave the following suggestion. S/he probably meant that since Lotta likes toys so much, the behaviors would be teached so that the reward would be to continue playing with the toy instead of giving treats. My friend thinks that s/he was right. This is what s/he told my friend to do with a clicker:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
ask with verbal cue Lotta to take a toy. After some time ask her to drop it and as a reward give that same toy back to Lotta. My friend would keep doing it for a little while and at the last time she would reward with a treat.
My friend wants to add that the person told also to click when Lotta does those behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekah View Post
...any words you use to apply to the behaviour become white noise right off the bat.
That's the reason why my friend is not sure how to apply it with Lotta.
(The person never answered to the question)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonora View Post
However, that person suggested to use verbal cues right from the beginning.Like we told, that doesn't work with Lotta. So, the question is now does it work also in this way/in this order?: Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them? So that she would teach them before naming them?
If someone could answer to the question, my friend could try it next.
Does someone have other ideas of how to teach those behaviors so that the reward would be to continue playing with the toy?
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