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  #121  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:32 AM
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I can not imagine living in a place where everyone in the world is running up to touch my dogs. Is it really like that? Half the time when I take dogs out specifically for socialization, people just smile and make eye contact after looking at the dog. I have only once had someone grab a dog without asking, and it was an adult woman. Most tiny kids I see are scared of dogs, and once they are old enough to speak, they are better than adults about asking to pet them.

Perhaps it is a regional thing, like spaying/neutering, where the education has just really infiltrated the north-east. I'm trying to think of a time where a person has ever touched either of my dogs without permission, or would have had to grab them because of a slipped collar/getting loose. Nothing. The incidence above was when a friend and I took a puppy to an outdoor marketplace for socialization, and had our backs turned for a second looking at a menu. Not something I would do with either of my dogs, for various reasons, but a nice place to socialize a puppy.

I realize it isn't the main issue for the OP, just the comments that seem baffling to me.

And I do have a dog that I might have considered a bite risk if he was grabbed by the collar or picked up without warning. Gusto growled several times over such things, and would head-whip, although he never tried to bite. I did a ton of counter-conditioning, so now I can pick him up without complaint, and he plays collar grab games regularly. I expect he would not react if someone else picked him up as well, but to be honest, I just don't put him in that position.

I think the OP is doing the right thing by taking the dog to a behaviorist; these things are far too sensitive to be decided over the internet by people who have never seen the dog. I wish you luck with your appointment and hope it helps you find answers you are comfortable with, whichever way it goes.
is possible. or certain people give off a certain aura that makes others think they can do whatever they want. iv lived in 4 different states with my APBT and Am Bullies, and i actually have never had someone come up to me and ask about my dogs, their breed, or anything. maybe i give off an aura of "dont talk to me" which suits me just fine. the less i get accosted in public, the happier i am. my dog is not public property either, and doesnt need to be mauled by every tom dick and harry. gyah i think i would punch somebody out if they ran around me to harass my dog
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  #122  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:35 AM
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I don't think biting when the collar is grabbed is acceptable exactly, but it's fairly common and possibly fixable. Plus the actual bite incidents involve more than just the dog getting his collar/body grabbed, he is also in trouble, thus getting or likely about to get punished in some way, even if mild.

Most importantly it's predictable and for me it would be avoidable. The OP needs to decide if she can (and is willing to) avoid doing the sorts of things that trigger him, at least while she counter conditions him and possibly forever. I wouldn't say euthanizing is the wrong choice though, especially with the stranger aggression in there. But the biggest problem as far as bites go is grabbing hold of/restraining the dog when he's in trouble, and that sounds WORKABLE to me. Not an acceptable behavior, but something that could be improved and safely avoided in the right living situation.
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  #123  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:37 AM
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i also want to interject, after reading this topic with interest for several days, that do not be so hasty to fall into the trap of thinking that teeth=aggression, like so many, ESPECIALLY pit bull people, do. especially in the pit bull/bull breeds, the mantra has gone from "they are gentle to people, vicious to other dogs" to a far-out batty "no pit bull should lay teeth on humans for ANY REASON!!!!!!!11one" which is unfair and unrealistic, as mouths are a major means of communication, and teeth are like hands. i would not, for example, treat a dog grabbing my hand in his mouth and "leading" me to his toybox, as aggression-punishable-by-death. we all see videos of people harassing their own dogs, oblivious to the whispers, knowing a shout (bite) is coming soon. imagine if we treated each other in the same way? deaf until somebody raises their voice, and then executing any people who shout. thats ALL biting is. A SHOUT. when nothing else worked, or when its warranted, its a raising of the voice

why would you kill somebody for raising their voice?
I haven't seen anyone here that would say PTS if a dog did what you described. Granted, it's a 13pg. thread so I may have missed something.

My dogs will use their mouths on my arms if we're playing rough, but nothing that I'd ever deem aggressive (none have ever left marks on my arms or anything that remotely hurt me). There's a huge difference in that (playful) behavior vs. if I went to grab one of their collars and they turned around and bit me because they didn't like what I was doing. THAT is not okay. Ever, IMO. Especially when the dog is biting its owner and not a random person. I don't care what level of bite it is.


And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
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  #124  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:40 AM
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I haven't seen anyone here that would say PTS if a dog did what you described. Granted, it's a 13pg. thread so I may have missed something.

My dogs will use their mouths on my arms if we're playing rough, but nothing that I'd ever deem aggressive (none have ever left marks on my arms or anything that remotely hurt me). There's a huge difference in that (playful) behavior vs. if I went to grab one of their collars and they turned around and bit me because they didn't like what I was doing. THAT is not okay. Ever, IMO. Especially when the dog is biting its owner and not a random person. I don't care what level of bite it is.


And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
or your dogs are cuter than mine
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  #125  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
I can not imagine living in a place where everyone in the world is running up to touch my dogs. Is it really like that? Half the time when I take dogs out specifically for socialization, people just smile and make eye contact after looking at the dog. I have only once had someone grab a dog without asking, and it was an adult woman. Most tiny kids I see are scared of dogs, and once they are old enough to speak, they are better than adults about asking to pet them.
.
Most people in my area would ask before petting, and certainly even more people than that don't feel the need to pet them. It's just those occasional very small children that tend to come from out of nowhere to grab at the dogs. One of the first I encountered was with my first Stafford, Elmo, shortly after I got him. Little boy ran up, dropped to his knees, threw his arms around Elmo's neck, and with his face pressed to the dog's face, asked me "does he bite?" *cringe*

That was pretty much when I learned that Elmo did not bite.

Anyway, the problem is that the few individuals that do grab the dog without warning and without asking, tend to be very small, and very vulnerable. It makes me really, really appreciate the solid, absolutely reliable nature of the dogs I choose to own. And pretty unwilling to have a dog who is less reliable with people. Maybe if I lived in a less populous environment I would feel differently.
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  #126  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:04 AM
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And yes, must be a regional thing, because I constantly have people including kids run up on my dogs when we're out in public. Rarely do they ask permission to pet them. Do I like it? No, not really. But that's just the way people are around here.
It's possible I'd run up to Barrett squealing!

Now I'm paranoid that I'm giving off an evil vibe.
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:41 AM
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You are right, I was. I'm sorry, I was just hurt by those comments.
I did contact a certified animal behaviorist, first evaulation (2 hrs) is $250, so I am going with that.
I think that sounds like a plan, and personally a step I would have taken if I were in your shoes.

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What area are you in? That seems a little steep, for just an evaluation (and training plan?). How much are additional sessions, are you able to continue with them? Sorry, there are as many greedy and poor trainers as there are BYB. Just want to make sure you get set up in a program that will work, that you can afford to maintain.
Well, that is what the Purdue behavior clinic charges for their initial behavior evaluation. Around $250-$300, and then the follow up is an additional $80-$100. So that price doesn't seem off the wall to me.
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  #128  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:33 AM
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or your dogs are cuter than mine
LOL I don't know about that, but really, I don't think there has been a time when I've taken my guys out when I *don't* have someone coming up to them.
When I have Sako & Barrett, people almost always ask what breed they are. When I say "American Staffordshire Terrier" I generally get this face: so I use that as an opportunity to educate people a bit. With Piper, everyone always knows she's a "Pit Bull". It's interesting, actually.

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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
It's possible I'd run up to Barrett squealing!

Now I'm paranoid that I'm giving off an evil vibe.
Hehe, well, he is rather endearing with his little puppy snorts and bounciness

I really don't mind people coming up to me when I have my dogs, to be honest. I'd prefer people ask before petting them obviously (this doesn't happen too often, but every once in awhile it does). They are great examples of their breed and I'd prefer people coming up to my dogs and having a good experience vs. the unstable/sketchy/whatever Pit Bull thing someone else may have and having a negative one.
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  #129  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:59 AM
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I have never had a child attempt to pet my dog without permission, except a toddler who ran at us from afar. But she was a toddler so we just got up and quickly walked away. Children have always been very good at asking and listening when I say no. The only times adults attempt to pet him without permission are people who are actually in my house and people whose dog he is greeting, which is understandable. He doesn't greet new dogs anymore so that's no longer and issue.

So I do think it's regional as well. But perhaps also depends where you are in a more situational sense. Are you guys talking about people running up to you while you're walking around the neighborhood, or are you in a place that has crowds of people? I could see someone reaching out and petting a dog if you're walking among people and the dog is like a foot away from the person. But a dog like the OPs (or mine) would not be someplace like that.
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  #130  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:27 AM
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Have has kids try to walk up to gage to pet him, usually their parents grab them and cross the street though.
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