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  #101  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
So you don't think there is a difference between a dog that would go after a small dog under specific, prey drive triggering circumstances and a highly DA dog that would go after any dog under any circumstance?
Oh I never claimed there wasn't a difference in mechanism. There is no difference in affect. I don't know of many dog or cat owners whose animals have been severely injured or killed by sighthounds that thought, "whew, it's a good thing my pet was killed by a Greyhound and not one of those Pit Bulls!" There just happens to be a higher population of dogs that an APBT will willingly engage vs. a typical sighthound, if given the opportunity. Both require a level of management, neither are a fault in their respective breeds, and neither translate to human aggression.

And Dogdragoness, you'd be surprised. And none of my dogs are a "ticking DA time bomb." That's implying unpredictability. My dogs are predictably DA. If anything, your dog who selectively decides which dogs they want to maim or kill is the "ticking time bomb."
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  #102  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Oh I never claimed there wasn't a difference in mechanism. There is no difference in affect. I don't know of many dog or cat owners whose animals have been severely injured or killed by sighthounds that thought, "whew, it's a good thing my pet was killed by a Greyhound and not one of those Pit Bulls!" There just happens to be a higher population of dogs that an APBT will willingly engage vs. a typical sighthound, if given the opportunity. Both require a level of management, neither are a fault in their respective breeds, and neither translate to human aggression.
To expand on this and the thought of different traits in different breeds, point being that people should be extra cautious with their pets around APBTs, and any other high prey drive breed (DA is partially a modified/intensified form of the same prey drive all terriers possess). In much the same way that people should be extra cautious about approaching a breed like a Fila improperly, because a degree of HA is commonplace in the breed. People should not have to be cautious around APBTs in that way, and so it's not "the same" as DA in the breed, just as an APBT level of DA (or even sighthound level prey drive) in a Golden Retriever would be completely unacceptable.
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  #103  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:19 PM
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Aleron Aleron is offline
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Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Let me put it this way, since this has actually happened. My leashed dogs didn't make the news. Either time.

Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
Where I live, a dog who kills another dog is legally considered a dangerous dog, just like a dog who attacks a person.

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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Maybe it didn't make the headlines but it definitely affects the breed negatively in SOME way. It is not just a neutral thing that happened.

I am extremely wary of pit bulls these days for this very reason. I have personally seen too many maul another dog, heard 'responsible pit owners' talk about their dogs killing other dogs, and had too many friends whose dogs were attacked by pit bulls and injured through no fault of their own. My trainer's dog was the most recent case- attacked at a dog show while in the hotel on a leash. They were simply walking out their door and the dog started mauling him. My cousin's pit killed a golden a few years ago. I watched a pit take off half a mastiff's ear and they had to choke him off. Both dogs in that instance were leashed. I know several owners on forums who have admitted their dogs have killed other dogs (and almost with a badge of honor- well my dog is SUPER DA but he's so great with people!). And I could go on. And on.

That kind of stuff definitely has shaped my feelings towards the breed and the way the owners seem to be failing to manage that DA... I have known other dog breeds where individuals have injured/fought with other dogs, but not to the same extent. The end result is that I don't really trust the breed at all. I am so much more aware when around a pit bull and so much more cautious than with most other breeds. It has zip to do with media perception and everything to do with how many bad experiences I've had.

Personally, I would MUCH rather deal with a dog with a somewhat spooky temperament than one who was 'stable with people' that's instincts were to kill other dogs. I'm not sure I'd call that a 'stable dog'. I don't think stability simply has to do with how the dog reacts towards people. A dog that goes off the hilt at another dog for simply being? Not on the top of my list when it comes to stability and safety.

And I hear other people with the same thoughts too, it's not just me. My trainer won't go anywhere without mace and a cattle prod now.
I totally agree with this. It seems pretty silly to suggest that a pit bull killing another dog doesn't further harm the breed's image. Actually if anything, most of the public doesn't view dog aggression and human aggression separately, so the reaction to a pit bull killing another dog would likely be along the "OMG next time it could be a child!" than "well at least it's only dog aggressive". Also, whenever there is a dogfight, there is a risk of people being badly bitten trying to break it up.

Yes dog aggression is part of the breed and that is a big part of what makes them so problematic for pet owners IMO. The average owner has a hard time managing serious dog or human aggression.

I do think prey issues with small dogs is a bit different. It is a lot easier to manage anyway, since the issue tends to specifically involve the prey driven dog running loose with small dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
But again, this dog doesn't have a history of unprovoked bites? The dog seems to have some body/restraint issues and possible response to punishment/restraint (being "shown" his urine accident) but if I get bitten by a dog once for grabbing its collar, then I grab its collar again later without working on touch sensitivity or being reached for... that isn't an unprovoked bite, surely?
Sounds about right to me.

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Originally Posted by JacksonsMom View Post
I've had the same experiences and it's very sad. Because I've never been one to be prejudiced towards ANY breed, and I will usually always stand up for a Pit Bull, but I am extremely cautious around them and won't let my little dog go say hello to a Pit Bull that I don't know.
Hopefully you don't allow your little dog to go say hi to strange dogs in general?

[QUOTE=SevenSins;2321503]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Let me put it this way, since this has actually happened. My leashed dogs didn't make the news. Either time.

Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
Where I live, a dog who kills another dog is legally considered a dangerous dog, just like a dog who attacks a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Maybe it didn't make the headlines but it definitely affects the breed negatively in SOME way. It is not just a neutral thing that happened.

I am extremely wary of pit bulls these days for this very reason. I have personally seen too many maul another dog, heard 'responsible pit owners' talk about their dogs killing other dogs, and had too many friends whose dogs were attacked by pit bulls and injured through no fault of their own. My trainer's dog was the most recent case- attacked at a dog show while in the hotel on a leash. They were simply walking out their door and the dog started mauling him. My cousin's pit killed a golden a few years ago. I watched a pit take off half a mastiff's ear and they had to choke him off. Both dogs in that instance were leashed. I know several owners on forums who have admitted their dogs have killed other dogs (and almost with a badge of honor- well my dog is SUPER DA but he's so great with people!). And I could go on. And on.

That kind of stuff definitely has shaped my feelings towards the breed and the way the owners seem to be failing to manage that DA... I have known other dog breeds where individuals have injured/fought with other dogs, but not to the same extent. The end result is that I don't really trust the breed at all. I am so much more aware when around a pit bull and so much more cautious than with most other breeds. It has zip to do with media perception and everything to do with how many bad experiences I've had.

Personally, I would MUCH rather deal with a dog with a somewhat spooky temperament than one who was 'stable with people' that's instincts were to kill other dogs. I'm not sure I'd call that a 'stable dog'. I don't think stability simply has to do with how the dog reacts towards people. A dog that goes off the hilt at another dog for simply being? Not on the top of my list when it comes to stability and safety.

And I hear other people with the same thoughts too, it's not just me. My trainer won't go anywhere without mace and a cattle prod now.
I totally agree with this. It seems pretty silly to suggest that a pit bull killing another dog doesn't further harm the breed's image. Actually if anything, most of the public doesn't view dog aggression and human aggression separately, so the reaction to a pit bull killing another dog would likely be along the "OMG next time it could be a child!" than "well at least it's only dog aggressive". Also, whenever there is a dogfight, there is a risk of people being badly bitten trying to break it up.

Yes dog aggression is part of the breed and that is a big part of what makes them so problematic for pet owners IMO. The average owner has a hard time managing serious dog or human aggression.

I do think prey issues with small dogs is a bit different. It is a lot easier to manage anyway, since the issue tends to specifically involve the prey driven dog running loose with small dogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
But again, this dog doesn't have a history of unprovoked bites? The dog seems to have some body/restraint issues and possible response to punishment/restraint (being "shown" his urine accident) but if I get bitten by a dog once for grabbing its collar, then I grab its collar again later without working on touch sensitivity or being reached for... that isn't an unprovoked bite, surely?
Sounds about right to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
To expand on this and the thought of different traits in different breeds, point being that people should be extra cautious with their pets around APBTs, and any other high prey drive breed (DA is partially a modified/intensified form of the same prey drive all terriers possess). In much the same way that people should be extra cautious about approaching a breed like a Fila improperly, because a degree of HA is commonplace in the breed. People should not have to be cautious around APBTs in that way, and so it's not "the same" as DA in the breed, just as an APBT level of DA (or even sighthound level prey drive) in a Golden Retriever would be completely unacceptable.
It may be unacceptable in terms of proper temperament for the breed but that has more to do with making breeding choices than ownership choices. A Golden willing to attack and kill other dogs doesn't require any different handling or management than a pit bull willing to do the same and both would be equally dangerous to other people's dogs.
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  #104  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
To expand on this and the thought of different traits in different breeds, point being that people should be extra cautious with their pets around APBTs, and any other high prey drive breed (DA is partially a modified/intensified form of the same prey drive all terriers possess). In much the same way that people should be extra cautious about approaching a breed like a Fila improperly, because a degree of HA is commonplace in the breed. People should not have to be cautious around APBTs in that way, and so it's not "the same" as DA in the breed, just as an APBT level of DA (or even sighthound level prey drive) in a Golden Retriever would be completely unacceptable.
If you label Josefina as unpredictable then you have to think of every dog who is "selectively" prey driven OR "selectively" DA is also equally unpredictable.
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  #105  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:54 PM
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Okay, so since you assume I have handled him incorrectly in the past, it makes me incapable of learning how to handle him 'correctly' in the future, making me the wrong owner for him. Mmmmm typical Chaz. Thanks for your opinions guys!
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  #106  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PitBullLove View Post
Okay, so since you assume I have handled him incorrectly in the past, it makes me incapable of learning how to handle him 'correctly' in the future, making me the wrong owner for him. Mmmmm typical Chaz. Thanks for your opinions guys!
I think you are being a bit unfair. There were only a few posts that suggested anything close to that...
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  #107  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Hell I'll pull APBTs completely out of the equation and use Laurelin's currently non-existent sighthound as an example.

You're walking your sighthound on leash. Suddenly, a small off-leash dog runs past yours. Your dog snatches it up and kills it. Do you think that this is a "problem" with your dog or whichever sighthound breed it is? Should people be striving to breed this trait out? Do you think it does or should cause a negative view of the breed? Should your dog be euthanized or medicated because of this? Or do you chalk it up to your dog possessing a breed trait and someone else being an idiot, but it's not your fault the incident happened?

Same question, but replace "small dog" with "child" and we'll assume that the dog "only" bit the kid in the face but didn't actually kill it.
I would consider this a major problem. My sighthound knows that small dogs are dogs and not prey. She is not at all prey driven towards other dogs of any size, nor would I find it acceptable for her to be so.
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  #108  
Old 11-16-2013, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Polecatty View Post
I would consider this a major problem. My sighthound knows that small dogs are dogs and not prey. She is not at all prey driven towards other dogs of any size, nor would I find it acceptable for her to be so.
While some sight hounds may be like this the majority of them with high drive will case down and probably kill a small living animal. Off topic but it comes with knowing your breed. For example I wouldn't get a male Doberman with another male dog in the house. Most pit bulls need to be in one dog households or crate/rotate, sight hounds chase small fast moving animals, ect...

More people need to know what they are getting into and that some of these breed traits can NOT always be trained out
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  #109  
Old 11-16-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
While some sight hounds may be like this the majority of them with high drive will case down and probably kill a small living animal. Off topic but it comes with knowing your breed. For example I wouldn't get a male Doberman with another male dog in the house. Most pit bulls need to be in one dog households or crate/rotate, sight hounds chase small fast moving animals, ect...

More people need to know what they are getting into and that some of these breed traits can NOT always be trained out
This is so funny to me!

I've seen many working sighthounds and as a general rule they are quite safe with other dogs and are often expected to work loose alongside small breeds. You won't make many friends on a fox drive if your staghound is picking up people's terriers and spaniels!
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  #110  
Old 11-16-2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Polecatty View Post
This is so funny to me!

I've seen many working sighthounds and as a general rule they are quite safe with other dogs and are often expected to work loose alongside small breeds. You won't make many friends on a fox drive if your staghound is picking up people's terriers and spaniels!
My sight hounds are generally good with other smaller dogs, but the example given was greyhound. Most greyhounds in this country never see a non greyhound dog breed in their lives, much less a small dog, until they're off the racetrack. For many of them they're already 4+ years old when that happens.
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