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  #61  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
First, DA is a major trait in the breed, so any responsible owner should be well prepared for it and keeping an eye on their surroundings. Second, there are leash laws in most places where other dogs would be difficult to avoid, and as long as your Pit Bull is leashed, you're typically not legally liable if another dog runs up to your and gets attacked. Normally, in that situation, you're not going to make the local or national news, that tends to happen when an idiot owner with a DA APBT/Bully/mix/whatever has their dog off leash around other animals. On the other hand, leashed or not, if someone isn't watching their child and it runs up and gets attacked by your Pit Bull, you're screwed and others who own the breed are screwed, period.
You think that if an off-leash little dog ran up to a leashed pit bull and was killed, public opinion about the incident would be neutral or favorable towards the breed because the owner wasn't legally liable? I... really don't. It honestly seems like the same chance is being taken, just tolerated differently. If one is manageable, surely the other is manageable?

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Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
That's not what I meant. What I meant was at that point it wouldn't effect us, because one of the many joys of my life is if we don't like an area, we can just leave. Of course it bothers me when people have a dog with a vite history who's NOT doing anything about it and putting it into situations where it is ALLOWED to bite. But that doesn't mean the dog is the problem or it can't be managed and kept from harming others and live a happy life with just a little bit of effort on behalf of the owner. I don't view dogs as something that's disposable that you can just throw away if they're defective like merchandise from a store. The fact people on this board feel that way makes me want to puke.

I'm sorry that makes you sad. This whole thread makes me sad. That's all I have to say.
Agreed. It's like a weird twisted BSL of its own to me to essentially euthanize dogs for a potentially manageable behavior because of breed. What's next, the weight of the responsibility of BSL is on someone's not-a-pit-bull-but-might-be-mistaken-for-one mixed breed, too?
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  #62  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
You think that if an off-leash little dog ran up to a leashed pit bull and was killed, public opinion about the incident would be neutral or favorable towards the breed because the owner wasn't legally liable? I... really don't. It honestly seems like the same chance is being taken, just tolerated differently. If one is manageable, surely the other is manageable?
Let me put it this way, since this has actually happened. My leashed dogs didn't make the news. Either time.

Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
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  #63  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:55 PM
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Let me put it this way. My leashed dogs didn't make the news. Either time.
Huh. That's weird to me. I've seen local news stories about dogs being in their own yards, on leashes etc and being blamed for incidents.

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Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
But surely if someone is properly and seriously managing a dog, and aware of their surroundings, they're preventing a toddler from rushing up into your dog's face? Especially given that they are attached by a leash? Or, if you don't have kids yourself, why would toddlers ever even be around your dog in the first place? I guess that's part of what I don't get... if it's reasonably possible to manage DA dogs in a multiple dog household or in public, why is it so hard to manage a fear aggressive dog?


At the end of the day, it's not that I don't get where you are coming from, I honestly do. But I just don't agree with it, and a good thing for Pip too because otherwise he would be dead in the ground right now as he's redirected on me... which is probably why I'm taking this more personally than I should. I guess there isn't any more to say than that.
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  #64  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:15 PM
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Nobody would ever be able to say the same if a toddler ran up to someone's leashed manbiting Pit Bull and ended up in the hospital. That would be a headline, period.
I have a Pit Bull who's fear aggressive towards strange dogs as the result of being attacked at a dog park some years ago. In the past, we've gotten loose dogs racing up to her while out on walks, which has resulted in me doing everything in my power to put myself between the other dog and her, including body blocking, threatening the other dog to make it back off, and my least favorite, picking her up if it looks like she's going to hurt the other dog and it won't back off. My reflexes has tripled in speed because of this, and I'm ALWAYS on the alert. The only time this has ever failed and she's seriously hurt another dog on a walk was when we were attacked by a JRT that jumped out of an open car window last year. If given the chance, there would have been a lot more dogs seriously hurt by her. But there isn't because I don't LET it happen. And if I can do that with overly rambunctious, unruly dogs that their owners can't even control, people can do that with toddlers and young children. It might make you look "mean", but if it means protecting your dog as well as the kid, you do what you have to.

As someone else said, a Pit Bull isn't giving a bad image if it's not allowed to bite.
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  #65  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
As someone else said, a Pit Bull isn't giving a bad image if it's not allowed to bite.
No matter how vigilant someone is, crap always happens. ALWAYS. That's life. Dogs slip their leads. Leashes break. Muzzles come off. You're tired and your reflexes are just a tad slow that day.

I'd be really surprised if there was a single person on this forum who has NEVER had a dog slip out of the yard or house EVER. It seems like several times a year at least we have members posting about dogs who have somehow gotten out and are missing. And folks on Chaz are what I'd call above average in areas like training/vigilance/responsibility etc.

You (general "you") can never guarantee that any dog will never bite. If a dog has a bite history already, you can never guarantee that you will prevent 100% of bites for the rest of its life. The way I see it, if your dog has a history of unprovoked bites on people and you choose to keep it around, it's not just your safety you're choosing to gamble no matter how many precautions you take.

Am I totally against keeping unprovoked biters that inflict serious bites around? Not totally, but I lean heavily in that direction.
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  #66  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:11 AM
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No matter how vigilant someone is, crap always happens. ALWAYS. That's life. Dogs slip their leads. Leashes break. Muzzles come off. You're tired and your reflexes are just a tad slow that day.

I'd be really surprised if there was a single person on this forum who has NEVER had a dog slip out of the yard or house EVER. It seems like several times a year at least we have members posting about dogs who have somehow gotten out and are missing. And folks on Chaz are what I'd call above average in areas like training/vigilance/responsibility etc.

You (general "you") can never guarantee that any dog will never bite. If a dog has a bite history already, you can never guarantee that you will prevent 100% of bites for the rest of its life. The way I see it, if your dog has a history of unprovoked bites on people and you choose to keep it around, it's not just your safety you're choosing to gamble no matter how many precautions you take.

Am I totally against keeping unprovoked biters that inflict serious bites around? Not totally, but I lean heavily in that direction.
My point is, you can, and lots of people have successfully, managed dogs like this. The dog doesn't sound like Cujo, he sounds like a dog, who for whatever reason, doesn't like to be touched by people he doesn't know well. It's her choice, but I find it VERY unfair to rule a dog like that a death sentence when he hasn't even been given a fair chance, simply because he's a Pit Bull.
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  #67  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:27 AM
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My point is, you can, and lots of people have successfully, managed dogs like this. The dog doesn't sound like Cujo, he sounds like a dog, who for whatever reason, doesn't like to be touched by people he doesn't know well. It's her choice, but I find it VERY unfair to rule a dog like that a death sentence when he hasn't even been given a fair chance, simply because he's a Pit Bull.
Except that almost all his bites are on people who live with him, and in particular someone who raised him from an 8 week old puppy.

There just aren't any absolutes for knowing you can keep a dog out of triggering situations and keep innocent people unhurt for the rest of its life. It's unfair to judge a person's choice to euthanize or not based on that, because there always is that danger no matter what precautions you take.

Anyway, whether to keep and try to manage a dog like this is a really personal choice. Some dogs are born with such wonky temperaments and so stressed by any human interaction, it's not fair to make them live in close proximity to any people, including their owners. In cases like that it is nicer to the dog to put them down. I don't know if this dog is one of them. I've never met him.

I do see HA dogs as a very different thing than DA dogs. People just do not put as high a value on the life of a dog as they do on other human beings. Especially children, which is the group most likely to get bitten.

Also, how do you prevent a determined and unsupervised child from approaching a leashed dog? Body block? Shouting? Kids don't always listen to people telling them to stop, and using most methods that are effective for stopping off leash dogs from approaching will probably get you arrested.
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  #68  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:44 AM
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Completely agree with Romy, also

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Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
As someone else said, a Pit Bull isn't giving a bad image if it's not allowed to bite.
Anytime you have to tell someone your (general your) pit bull isn't friendly or people notice you going above and beyond to ensure your dog doesn't come into contact with humans, you are giving pit bulls a bad name. Well, potentially, some people won't notice or won't associate the behavior with the breed, but many are going to (correctly) attribute your special precautions to you being worried the dog will bite and will remember it next time they see a pit bull attack on the news.
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  #69  
Old 11-16-2013, 02:57 AM
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That's not what I meant. What I meant was at that point it wouldn't effect us, because one of the many joys of my life is if we don't like an area, we can just leave. Of course it bothers me when people have a dog with a vite history who's NOT doing anything about it and putting it into situations where it is ALLOWED to bite. But that doesn't mean the dog is the problem or it can't be managed and kept from harming others and live a happy life with just a little bit of effort on behalf of the owner. I don't view dogs as something that's disposable that you can just throw away if they're defective like merchandise from a store. The fact people on this board feel that way makes me want to puke.
I don't think I have put him into any situations where he is "allowed to bite". His first bite, the neighbor grabbed him, he was 8 weeks old, I had no idea he would bite. The others bites happened INSIDE MY HOME.
I do understand your feelings. I completely understand both sides people are pointing out, though.

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No matter how vigilant someone is, crap always happens. ALWAYS. That's life. Dogs slip their leads. Leashes break. Muzzles come off. You're tired and your reflexes are just a tad slow that day.
Yep!

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My point is, you can, and lots of people have successfully, managed dogs like this. The dog doesn't sound like Cujo, he sounds like a dog, who for whatever reason, doesn't like to be touched by people he doesn't know well. It's her choice, but I find it VERY unfair to rule a dog like that a death sentence when he hasn't even been given a fair chance, simply because he's a Pit Bull.
First of all - it is not people he doesn't know well. It is people he knows VERY WELL. And it is not "simply because he is a pit bull" either. And yes, he is being given a fair chance.

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Anytime you have to tell someone your (general your) pit bull isn't friendly or people notice you going above and beyond to ensure your dog doesn't come into contact with humans, you are giving pit bulls a bad name. Well, potentially, some people won't notice or won't associate the behavior with the breed, but many are going to (correctly) attribute your special precautions to you being worried the dog will bite and will remember it next time they see a pit bull attack on the news.
Exactly. The answer is never taking him out in public. I won't take a pit bull out in public who growls or puts his hackles up or who I have to tell people they cannot touch. The only kind of pit bull I will ever take out in public is one who will be a typical APBT.
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  #70  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Except that almost all his bites are on people who live with him, and in particular someone who raised him from an 8 week old puppy.
Several were when he was a very young puppy. Hell BEAU bit a couple times when he was a puppy. He's such a sweet, stable dog now. I almost wouldn't count bites by an 8 week old puppy. They haven't really learned bite inhibition by that point.

I also wonder if the ex didn't spank him for peeing on the ground? He was carrying him to show him his accident to scold him. If I'm being honest, that's why Nikki bit me. I was raised that you had to go show the dog what they did wrong and then you had to punish them.... You know how many times Nikki would snap or even make skin contact when I tried that? She would never snap in any other situation but you corner her and she KNOWS she's about to get scolded or spanked and heck yeah... she's going to fight to get away. Your puppy couldn't have bitten because he 'saw something he did wrong' because dogs don't know right or wrong. It's most likely to me that he was biting because he was fearful of what was about to happen. He learned that mess = scary owner.

Anyways, these are level 2 bites we're talking about after all.

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Level 2. Skin-contact by teeth but no skin-puncture. However, may be skin nicks (less than one tenth of an inch deep) and slight bleeding caused by forward or lateral movement of teeth against skin, but no vertical punctures.
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Levels 1 and 2 comprise well over 99% of dog incidents. The dog is certainly not dangerous and more likely to be fearful, rambunctious, or out of control. Wonderful prognosis. Quickly resolve the problem with basic training (control) especially oodles of Classical Conditioning, numerous repetitive Retreat n' Treat, Come/Sit/Food Reward and Back-up/Approach/Food Reward sequences, progressive desensitization handling exercises, plus numerous bite-inhibition exercises and games. Hand feed only until resolved; do NOT waste potential food rewards by feeding from a bowl.
To be honest he sounds like he's not been trained with the best methods and that makes me leery that the OP could really manage handling the dog safely.
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