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  #11  
Old 08-05-2013, 01:49 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Again, why? If you did your homework and actually picked a trustworthy, responsible and ethical breeder to get your dog from, wouldn't you assume that the breeder you picked was knowledgeable enough to make appropriate breeding decisions for their breeding program without the input of perhaps a less experienced owner that wanted a dog for sport but doesn't necessarily have the knowledge of bloodlines and pedigrees, structure and biomechanics, and the long term goals of the breeder's program?
If you did your homework and placed your breeding potential dog in a trustworthy, responsible, and ethical home that is knowledgeable enough to raise, train, and prove out the dog in an appropriate fashion, doesn't it seem reasonable to allow them some say in whether the dog is used to perpetuate the breed, to a degree that reflects their knowledge? After all, you know the lines, but they know the dog, and if there is a compelling reason to not breed the dog they, having thousands of dollar likely invested in the individual, could well deserve to weigh in.

It's a relationship that, from what I've seen, works best when based on mutual respect and honest communication. When one player holds all the cards, unilateral decisions and a combative relationship seems far more likely.

Then again, I'm in the "it takes a village" camp. Playing king for the day never really appealed to me.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
If you did your homework and placed your breeding potential dog in a trustworthy, responsible, and ethical home that is knowledgeable enough to raise, train, and prove out the dog in an appropriate fashion, doesn't it seem reasonable to allow them some say in whether the dog is used to perpetuate the breed, to a degree that reflects their knowledge?
Except that, as the person looking for a puppy, you have the advantage of actually being able to get to know and research your breeder long...long before you ever get one, if you so choose. As a breeder, I don't have the luxury of having a magical ball that tells me how many puppies I'm going to have and who is going to be applying for those puppies when I plan a breeding for X months from now. I have a much more strict "time limit" on how well I can get to know you on a personal level and make a judgement call. That's what contracts are for, and a good one will always do more than protect the breeder's interests.

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After all, you know the lines, but they know the dog, and if there is a compelling reason to not breed the dog they, having thousands of dollar likely invested in the individual, could well deserve to weigh in.
Weighing in about there being an issue serious enough that should cause the dog to not be worthy of being bred at all, and weighing in on a decision the breeder is making to breed that dog to a particular bitch that they own, are two completely different matters all together.

Scenario... Sally comes to me when I advertise my upcoming litter a couple months prior to breeding. She has said and done everything correctly on the application process, she wants a dog who she can take out and be competitive in multiple show and working events, and I pick out a male puppy who I think would be perfectly suited to her needs and lifestyle. I have a few males on my yard already, and decide to keep the best bitch puppy in the litter for myself. Sally gives me her word that she trusts my judgement as the breeder, and all I have to do is ask if I want to use him in the future. I believe her, because in the few months we've been talking, she's always seemed nice and trustworthy. This male puppy turns out to be the nicest, most balanced dog I've ever produced, and his temperament and drive are the epitome of what my breed should be. Meanwhile, my pick from the litter contracts pyometra and is spayed. I decide when this male puppy is 3 years old that I want to breed him back to his own dam for her last litter in order to genetically strengthen certain attributes from her side of the pedigree in order to set myself up to do a well planned outcross in the future. The owner says, "NO! I'm against inbreeding and I refuse." Without a contract, my breeding program would be floating down sh!t creek right about then... And THAT is why I have a clause in my contract that gives me the right to use or collect a male I produced.
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2013, 03:43 PM
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And leaving your breeding rights to a buyer's whim, and having contractual rights to breed whatever you want to the dog whenever you want as often as you want for the lifetime of the dog are two completely different things altogether.

My point was simply that there is room for a consensual middle ground that protects the breeder's interests while also giving at least a nod to the input and interests of the dog's owner/trainer. Hence my original example of having, for instance, the right to a set number of breedings (three seems to be common in breeds I've considered). Doesn't mean you can't get more than that if the owner agrees but it just sets some boundaries.

I mean, I get it. There is a reason I am missing what will likely be our only chance at Nationals while Mira is in her prime, and definitely Webster's only chance at Nationals, in order to breed, whelp, and raise a litter from which I may not even keep a puppy, due to timing. I believe in her breeders' program, I respect what they are doing, and the future of their line and the contribution they make to the breed is more important than me playing at Nationals for a week. And I really, really want to take a go a Nationals.

I just don't think the answer for most contracts is "I can breed what I want when I want as long as I want as many times as I want and you will accommodate me or die trying." Which, though not phrased so harshly, is the way some seem to be set up. A breeder may well miss out on great homes that way. I know they'd miss out on mine, which overall I think is a pretty good one.

You can protect breeder rights without going that far with it.
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  #14  
Old 08-05-2013, 05:00 PM
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Thanks for all the replies! A lot of different points of view.

I feel like I wouldn't be squicked if there was a limit- like 3 times or whatever. Or if the breeder was like "would it be cool if I bred a couple of nice bitches to Fido should he be breed worthy?"

With the ease of shipping sperm and whatnot it doesn't seem like a big deal- but I'm not familiar with the cost of such things.

And I figure the chances of a breeder taking the owner up on it may be fairly slim too.

I understand that a breeder is taking a risk by placing a puppy with me, and are far more experienced than I and that I must like their breeding program if I got a puppy from then.

I don't know- I'll have to think about this more. I just thought it was curious because I had never seen that before and then all of a sudden I was seeing it in quite a few contracts.
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Last edited by AliciaD; 08-05-2013 at 05:02 PM. Reason: typo
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  #15  
Old 08-05-2013, 05:42 PM
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[QUOTE=AliciaD;

With the ease of shipping sperm and whatnot it doesn't seem like a big deal- but I'm not familiar with the cost of such things.

.[/QUOTE]


Most of the time if you were too far away for a live breeding the breeder would pay shipping/collecting costs. This would be something that should be spelled out in a contract.

I always say that if you love a breeder but there is one thing in the contact you don't like then talk to then about it. A lot of breeders would be willing to work with a good home. Ask then why they do that and if you can find a middle ground. Like only x amount of breeding a or getting the dog collected x times and the breeder can use that.

I know a lot of breeders that if they sell a good male there is some sort of breeding contract in place. You can only keep so many dogs.

Also lets say worse case scenario the breeder does breed to the male way to much. Personally I would only have my dog collected for the breeder so if she wants to use what is collected and breed to much it doesn't really affect me as a pet owner. Getting into co breeding is a whole new ball game.

If you love the breeder except for that one thing offer a compromise. Let the breeder collect him x times and what they do with it is up to them. All you have to do is take him to the vet a couple of times free of charge.

The people who are saying well its my dog so too bad (generally speaking here) are usually the ones who complain because they can't get a puppy from a good breeder. Pure bred dogs is a two way street. Both the breeders and the buyers have to be willing to compromise and understand where the other person is coming from.
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2013, 05:39 AM
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Thanks for the response.

I'm sure if I was actually puppy hunting and not just looking at breeders' contracts there would be an actual conversation and not just me being like "wha? Is this a thing?"
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  #17  
Old 08-07-2013, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
I always say that if you love a breeder but there is one thing in the contact you don't like then talk to then about it. A lot of breeders would be willing to work with a good home. Ask then why they do that and if you can find a middle ground. Like only x amount of breeding a or getting the dog collected x times and the breeder can use that.
I've found this to be pretty true. My breeder and I have made some changes to my contract to accommodate a few things I wanted, such as being able to keep my future male intact until he is two.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2013, 10:19 PM
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I bought a dog on a show contract that listed co-ownership till championship. I am also friends with another owner of a dog from this litter. Both of us finished our dogs championships, years ago in my case, neither of us fully own our dogs to this day. The breeder prides herself on producing the most champion dogs of any breeder in this country, now we know how it happened, she holds ownership over the heads of her buyers, and then never signs the dogs over so that no one else can ever breed the dogs that they just showed until championship....
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2013, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoo View Post
I bought a dog on a show contract that listed co-ownership till championship. I am also friends with another owner of a dog from this litter. Both of us finished our dogs championships, years ago in my case, neither of us fully own our dogs to this day. The breeder prides herself on producing the most champion dogs of any breeder in this country, now we know how it happened, she holds ownership over the heads of her buyers, and then never signs the dogs over so that no one else can ever breed the dogs that they just showed until championship....
I co-owned the bitch that was the "foundation bitch" for my (very limited) breeding program. That breeder chooses to co-own all her pups until they are altered, so they can't be bred indiscriminately. Though in my case, I also didn't pay for the pup.

I hadn't intended to breed her, but when she was a few years old, started thinking about it. I talked with her breeder, and she was okay with the idea, suggested a stud, actually provided the semen (she had some frozen, it was a foreign dog), and since there was only one live pup, I didn't pay a stud fee. I then spayed the bitch, which meant I could have taken her off the co-ownership, but I never did, since I didn't see how it would serve me to do so. Seemed like unnecessary expense and effort.

FWIW, I also co-own that bitch's grandson- my dog, Pirate- with the same breeder. I offered the co-ownership as a courtesy, since she was supposed to get a pup from the litter (provided the stud), but decided she didn't want the pup that was available. I just took Pirate in for collection to be shipped to inseminate a bitch at his co-owner's request. The bitch was supposed to be bred by Pirate's sire, but the collection of his that was sent was of such poor quality that I was asked if I could get a collection done on Pirate.

There's no contract in this case, just courtesy between friends. But it's an example of another case where a breeder might want to use a quality dog they've produced and placed. If for some reason, the dogs they've been intending to use, turn out to not be able to do the job, the breeder may want to turn to a close relative.
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2013, 03:44 PM
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Default I would never agree to that condition

Unless the dog is to be competed and proven on bench or in field, then they are simply trying the newest scam in BYB land: Let everyone else do all the hard work and incur all of the expense and whenever we want we can have a litter of moneymakers!


Not a great practice IMO. Select a breeder that requires the dog to be altered, not bred.
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