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Old 10-09-2013, 08:09 PM
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Default Breeding back to back

There was a post on here a while ago supporting back to back breeding. I'm on my phone and can't find it. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Thanks
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:30 PM
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Most vets recommend breeding as early as possible, breeding back to back, and then spaying to reduce the risk of pyo. That's the only rationalization I've heard for it, though - nothing about the bitch's actual condition, just to get their organs out as soon as possible.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:34 PM
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The reading I did had something to do with the condition of the uterus. It gets worse with each heat cycle. I wish I could find the article now.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:46 PM
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not that it "gets worse" but iv been told that the bitches body, and uterus, prepare for puppies wether she got bred or not. so theres virtually no difference in the wear and tear of puppyless heats vs puppied heats. being that other than the labor and nursing itself, theres no difference between the two, i suppose people figure might as well get them all done in one go, and not draw it out.

also been told that the more heats she has WITHOUT being used, the greater chance of whelping/pregnancy complications, cysts, cancer, etc
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:07 AM
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Was it posted recently? Redeyre may have posted something a long time ago, I believe she bred her bitch back-to-back.

I'm not finding anything but I did find this:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1224

Quote:
Question: Is is safe to breed a bitch the next season after stopping the Cheque?

DrHutch: Absolutely. It's suggested not to skip a season, because we have been preserving the uterus from the effects of progesterone; what would be the benefit of exposing her uterus to two monts of progesterone?

Progesterone's effect on the uterine lining is the reason why bitches six and over have a 33.3 percent less chance of conceiving than bitches under 6 years of age.
Hutchison's name comes up in a lot of forum discussions. I'm not finding any studies/research to back this up, just people basically saying "I've heard this."
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:11 AM
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You may want to keep an eye on this, they've had 2 sessions already so I wouldn't be surprised if they had another https://www.coursera.org/course/theriogenology
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:25 AM
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I did read an article by a veterinary reproductive specialist that recommended the back-to-back thing, but it was a while ago, and I don't have a link. From a purely reproductive standpoint, it makes sense, but there are other considerations.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:19 AM
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From what I've seen, Dr. Hutchinson's stance is basically that everything possible should be done to reduce the number of heat cycles a bitch experiences to protect the uterus from the progestrone damage it sustains every heat cycle, regardless of breeding. He is also a big proponent of cheque drops last I saw, in and effort to keep the bitch from cycling between breedings. His description is especially that if you prevent heat cycles, you could have a five or six year old girl with the uterus of a two or three year old because she has experienced fewer heat cycles.

Others speak out against cheque drops as being very dangerous for the girls, so take that as you will...

As for breeding back to back, that has consistently seemed to be something to address with individuals. Is the girl in good health? How long since her last litter (some girls cycle every four months...others once a year)? How much did that last litter take out of her (c-section? Tough pregnancy? Complications? Giant litter?)?

From a 2002 (so possibly dated) interview with Dr. Hutchinson:

Quote:
The other five problems have to do with the bitch herself, and progesterone testing the DAY of ovulation is the day her progesterone goes above 5 nanograms. Even though she has this three week-plus heat cycle, there is a three to four day window we have to hit that varies from bitch to bitch. With progesterone testing, we can be sure the semen is put in at the proper time no matter what type of insemination method we are using.

In the bitch, the semen is pumped up into the uterus....so outside ties... poorly done AIs... that don't deposit the semen in the cervix, which is located in the abdomen above the bladder, prevent sement from being drawn up into the uterus.

As bitches age, they get cysts within their uterus which can obstruct the pathway - a good reason in an older bitch for considering a surgical insemination.

Conception takes place in the Fallopian Tubes regardless of the method of insemination.

An older bitch is any bitch over 5, by the way; several of you asked.

The fertilized eggs are then released into the uterus, but don't implant until day 17-18 after ovulation. So if there are uterine lining problems, we either don't have implantation OR...the placenta, which actually grows into the lining of the uterus, can't grow or be maintained, and the puppies are reabsorbed. It will develop as the night goes on, how to detect some of these problems.

When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.

The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.

Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis.

So, in the bitch... So breeding back to back... or even back to back to back to back....this is WHY it's such a crime we don't have Cheque drops on the market now, to preserve the bitch's uterine lining.
And later in the interview, after being asked whether to breed the heat immediately after ceasing cheque drop:
Quote:
Absolutely. It's suggested not to skip a season, because we have been preserving the uterus from the effects of progesterone; what would be the benefit of exposing her uterus to two monts of progesterone?

Progesterone's effect on the uterine lining is the reason why bitches six and over have a 33.3 percent less chance of conceiving than bitches under 6 years of age.
But his goal is basically to get the puppies you want then spay. No additional heat cycles if possible. If you don't plan to spay after your final litter, then your main incentive would trying to achieve the pregnancy with the uterus in as "young" a state as possible or simply convenience. In which case the question circles back to how well your girl recovered from her last pregnancy and puppy raising extravaganza.

I'd go on but my thumbs are getting tired :P
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:15 PM
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Thank you. I was having a discussion with someone about the merits of breeding back to back (with a vets go ahead) and just wanted more info. I'm not pro breeding back to back but I'm not against it. Just wanted the info. Thanks.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:26 AM
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My repro vet said that they lose uterine tone every time they go into season, so that if a bitch is in good condition after a litter (not too skinny from nursing, etc.) it's safer to do it back to back. If she isn't in good weight and stuff then obviously it's bad.

I think part of it depends on the breed too. Some primitive breeds have seasons that are about a year apart, so not only is it spaced out more they also go through less seasons overall than more modern breeds that go in every 6 months or so. I.E, my 4 year old borzoi bitch has only had 4 seasons. But her 4 year old collie buddy has had 8 so far. So she should have better uterine tone even though they are the same age.
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