Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

A prong or NeckTech with a backup leash attached to another collar/harness. Two leashes and two points of attachment.

The NeckTech is gentler than a prong if it makes you feel better.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-06-2013, 03:54 PM
ForestPhin ForestPhin is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Default scared dog

I also am going to vote against the prong. From your description, he sounds pretty fearful. I dont think a prong is going to do anything other than shut him down further and make him more scared than he already is.

Personally on a dog like this I'd go to a head halter first, specifically a Gentle Leader. But, like any other tool they have to be fit and used properly. Second choice would be a good front clip harness like the Sensation/Freedom one. Avoid the EZ Walk (by Premier), theyre junk and dont fit 95% of dogs.

I agree with whomever said this dog just needs more training in general. Again, going off your descriptions, he sounds like he's pulling out of fear and trying to escape, not because he's in the mood to be naughty. He also doesnt sound like the easiest dog to work with in the world... It sounds like maybe you might get a bit ahead of yourself and "lump", or ask too many things of him that he doesnt know how to handle at once. You need to make sure he can sit like a champ in your upstairs, on only one verbal cue, before you expect him to sit at the door that he doesnt particularly want to go out of. If its that bad, you could actually ask him to sit, and then reward him by letting him go back upstairs if you think he'll find that more rewarding.

If going outside is that stressful at this point in time, I wouldnt ask him to do anything beforehand. You can close the door before he charges out if thats an issue, but that gets him to decide to wait on his own, youre not commanding him to do anything. Instead of the sit, I'd just get whatever apparatus you choose on and calmly take him out. He needs to have as many rewards as possible for complying to you. If you know he's not going to do something, dont ask him to do it, otherwise you are just eroding what you have already built up.

Sorry, thats a lot of info. The basics of it all is get a tool to physically control him and train him in environments where you know you will get results before making it harder. Good luck.
__________________
"A really companionable and indispensable dog is an accident of nature. You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens along."
- E B White, The Care and Training of a Dog
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-06-2013, 04:37 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

Quote:
Personally on a dog like this I'd go to a head halter first, specifically a Gentle Leader.
If he really bolts as hard and fast as it sounds like, head halter spells neck and/or eye injury. They are NOT a tool that's actually good for pulling. Reactivity and just a bit of redirection? Sure. Full-out pulling, not so much.'

ETA: If you do decide to go for a head halter, still make sure to have a backup collar/harness and leash. He's gotten away from you before, and it sounds like he's set to do it again, so having a backup is very, VERY important.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:03 PM
ForestPhin ForestPhin is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Default head halter

Like I said, the head halter has to be fit correctly and you need to learn how to use it.

If the dog is on a 6' totally slack leash, and suddenly goes from zero to 60 and hits the end of it, yeah, potential injury. Its not fool-proof, but no tools that actually work are. I worked at a high volume training facility and worked an average of 8-12 dogs a day. Probably half of them wore GLs (these dogs were in training for a reason for the most part) and we never had any injuries other than mild chaffing on those with sensitive skin. I trained some VERY reactive out of control dogs, on a regular basis, and I would choose a GL over a prong or other tools 99.9% of the time. No other tool gives you that much control.

Why do you think people still use halters and bridles on horses? Because if you have their head, you have control.

Again, any tool can be misused, some easier than others. But, common sense and education are the best tools you can use.

ETA--I also agree that two points of attachment is not a bad idea. With dogs I had concern about bolting, I would attach the GL ring AND the collar rings together via the leash. Softens the impact if it is something the dog is likely to do.
__________________
"A really companionable and indispensable dog is an accident of nature. You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens along."
- E B White, The Care and Training of a Dog

Last edited by ForestPhin; 10-06-2013 at 05:05 PM. Reason: forgot something
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-06-2013, 06:20 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

Quote:
Why do you think people still use halters and bridles on horses? Because if you have their head, you have control.
Horses and dogs have completely different structure. It's virtually impossible to injure a horse's neck with a halter, but it's incredibly easy to do so with a dog. Neck injuries don't always show up immediately, either.

Regardless, the two points of attachment is pretty much a MUST for prong or head halter work, as both are prone to falling off when you don't intend them to.

GLs are more likley to cause eye injuries, while Haltis are more likely to cause neck injuries. The best type of head collar to use, if you feel you MUST use one for a dog that pulls, is one that attaches to the leash behind the head, like the Sporn. It's less likely to cause neck injuries.




Quote:
If the dog is on a 6' totally slack leash, and suddenly goes from zero to 60 and hits the end of it, yeah, potential injury.
And that's exactly what it sounds like the dog in question is doing. Plus the handler pulling on the leash (giving a leash correction) can cause injury too.


I cringe at any trainer/training facility that slaps a head halter on every dog that comes in the door. That's laziness. Yes, they do have their place, and yes, I have used them on my dogs, but it is NOT safe for a dog that bolts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-06-2013, 06:41 PM
ForestPhin ForestPhin is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Default head halter etc

The reason I am recommending the head halter to the OP is that the dog sounds like it has a lot more issues than just "pulling". Sounds like there is very little control in general, and in my experience, a GL properly used gives you far more control than anything else.

A head halter should never EVER be used with a correction. Ever. Period. And I've never seen anyone promote that tool with that as a technique. Ever.

You seem very fixated on injuries RE head halters. Yet, you are not at all concerned about injuries from misuse of a prong? Especially considering how difficult it is to properly fit a prong collar? Seems a bit pot calling the kettle black, doesn't it...?

If you have studies or data to back up the head halter injury theory, by all means, I'd love to see them. I understand the logic behind it, but I have yet to see in person or read any documentation of it actually happening.
__________________
"A really companionable and indispensable dog is an accident of nature. You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens along."
- E B White, The Care and Training of a Dog
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-06-2013, 07:55 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestPhin View Post
The reason I am recommending the head halter to the OP is that the dog sounds like it has a lot more issues than just "pulling". Sounds like there is very little control in general, and in my experience, a GL properly used gives you far more control than anything else.

A head halter should never EVER be used with a correction. Ever. Period. And I've never seen anyone promote that tool with that as a technique. Ever.

You seem very fixated on injuries RE head halters. Yet, you are not at all concerned about injuries from misuse of a prong? Especially considering how difficult it is to properly fit a prong collar? Seems a bit pot calling the kettle black, doesn't it...?

If you have studies or data to back up the head halter injury theory, by all means, I'd love to see them. I understand the logic behind it, but I have yet to see in person or read any documentation of it actually happening.
As soon as you provide studies to back up your prong injuries, I MAY be arsed to dig up data on head collar injuries. Clearly I'm not swaying you regardless (and I'm not trying to, the OP is the person I'm trying to give advice to), so it's a waste of my time. Again, yes, headcollars have their place, but NOT with a dog that bolts. Once the dog doesn't bolt anymore, and is just reactive, then yeah, it'd be a great choice. But as of right now the ONLY headcollar I'd put on this dog is one that attaches at the back of the neck.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-06-2013, 08:43 PM
StillandSilent StillandSilent is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,151
Default

I should also mention that when I use the freedom harness with Gambit, I do it with one end of the 2x clip leash on the back of the harness and one on his matingale collar. He's a bolter as well and its the only way I feel safe.
__________________

Booty Dancing In Heaven 10/13/03-9/15/12
As much as I try to be one of those easygoing 'spread your wings and fly' types, I just can't stop trying to burst people into flames with my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-06-2013, 09:00 PM
frostfell's Avatar
frostfell frostfell is offline
Kung Pow Fish
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 816
Default

for a dog that remains still, spooks, runs, and flips himself or yanks his owner down stairs, a headcollar is the last thing you want. hello whiplash and broken necks huzzah!

i DONT know how to train around weird learned behaviors, because iv never gotten them in the first place, but while you are working on this anxiety, i wonder if a double leash system would work. attach a leash to the bottom post of the stairs that stays there. leash dog up, walk dog to the top step/before his triggers to bolt, leash him to the bottom-step leash, remove the one attached to you, and walk calmly down the stairs. if he bolts, hes only going to hit himself on a plain flat collar attached to a firm stair railing. once you are both safely on the GROUND, praise, releash to the one in your hand, proceed from there (either leaving or going back inside as a reward)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:19 PM
milos_mommy's Avatar
milos_mommy milos_mommy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,557
Default

When I used a halter on my foster, I had a leash attached to a buckle collar, and a short leash attached to the halter. I could still restrain his body weight with the leash and collar, but could control his focus and direct his face as well, in the event he started to flip out.

I'd definitely recommend using a backup leash for this dog.

This is a bit out-there, but is it possible for you to sit at the top of the steps with him and scoot down until you figure something better out? I wouldn't recommend a prong, either - a front clasp harness is a good idea...whatever you use, you'll probably have to condition him to it. A leash wrap might also freak him out/take getting used to. And until then, not falling is going to a priority for you.
__________________
"My favorite color is green, green like newly cut grass. When it comes to green with envy, though, you can stick it up your @ss!" ~ Grammy



http://www.adorablebeasts.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site