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  #1561  
Old 07-26-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekah View Post
It will definitely help Cohen aka Ms. Barkypants What's This Table You Speak Of I Can't Hear You So I'll Just Stand On This Thing And Bark McGee. Looking forward to the change.
Lol i've seen lots of aussies with that same philosophy actually.
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  #1562  
Old 07-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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You should be able to shape just fine using a toy. I've done it with Payton. In fact with weaves it's much better to use a toy or at least a throwable food-toy to encourage the forward drive!
P's favourite agility training toy
That... is true! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I don't use toys a lot with the clicker for training just because it's odd to me and the dogs get kind of confused at first, but I think I will try that. It'll be nice to see if it's the clicker/slow process or reward that's shutting Recon down. He pays too much attention to getting things right when he's working like that and shuts down if he doesn't get it right away.

I got the video to work, though! Just some clips of our 15 or so minutes of practice. I'm pretty proud of him- this is the best he's ever done and the first time we had worked on weaves since before his injury, so the first time having them closed up more, and some of the last clips were even more closed with awesome entrances, or so I think? Maybe they aren't that fantastic, but he made me proud regardless! I'm hoping to get out there regularly this week and work on it daily.

http://flickr.com/gp/26578641@N02/38k2vN
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  #1563  
Old 07-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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The table in AAC will now be positionless as of August 6th. Dog just has to get on for the count to start.

Doesn't affect Izzie and I as she has no issue and we're in masters where there is no table, but I'm sure it will help a bunch of teams out.
There was a lot of gossip (including from people in the know) that USDAA was going positionless as well, but it was not changed this year. People were taking it as such a given that I think everyone was shocked.

I'm not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. I get the hatred of the table but...train your dog, you know? I think I'd rather see it removed entirely than just be positionless. Plus it helps those of us with off breeds when all those herding dogs won't lie down on the table
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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[QUOTE=BostonBanker;2294345I'm not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. I get the hatred of the table but...train your dog, you know? I think I'd rather see it removed entirely than just be positionless. Plus it helps those of us with off breeds when all those herding dogs won't lie down on the table [/QUOTE]

I used to feel similar. Until a friend in my club had issues. Her dog can run a masters level regionals standard course and place 4th, but can't get out of starters because of table issues that she's been trying to work through for over two years. It's been a very long road for them for that single, simple, obstacle. She's been doing everything right (and approached it TONS of different ways) with the dog but something about the table is just so stressful to the poor dog.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
That... is true! I don't know why I didn't think of that. I don't use toys a lot with the clicker for training just because it's odd to me and the dogs get kind of confused at first, but I think I will try that. It'll be nice to see if it's the clicker/slow process or reward that's shutting Recon down. He pays too much attention to getting things right when he's working like that and shuts down if he doesn't get it right away.
To be honest I don't use the clicker with the toy. I believe Trkman does, she clicks then throws the toy... I just throw the toy. I know a lot of people do not recommend using a clicker for weaves because it creates a dog who is inclined to turn toward you when they hear the click. For a while with Pay I clicked and fed him in front of him with his head facing forward, then switched to throwing a toy. Forward drive is really the important part!

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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
I'm not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. I get the hatred of the table but...train your dog, you know? I think I'd rather see it removed entirely than just be positionless. Plus it helps those of us with off breeds when all those herding dogs won't lie down on the table
Yeah, I'm not sure how I really feel about it either. I know for some people it's a serious challenge. One of the people I trained with years ago had a dog who would not sit OR down on the table, and she never would have gotten a single standard Q if they hadn't gone positionless. I think somebody else here had a dog who would do the table in training but never in trials. But I still dunno how I feel about it.
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  #1566  
Old 07-26-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
To be honest I don't use the clicker with the toy. I believe Trkman does, she clicks then throws the toy... I just throw the toy. I know a lot of people do not recommend using a clicker for weaves because it creates a dog who is inclined to turn toward you when they hear the click. For a while with Pay I clicked and fed him in front of him with his head facing forward, then switched to throwing a toy. Forward drive is really the important part!
Thanks for the tip! I will try that!
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  #1567  
Old 07-26-2013, 04:00 PM
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I'm a big fan of the positionless table, not because I can't train the table, but because my dogs can't physically do it. Sit is usually okay, but it's really really hard for a dog of this build to get elbows and chest down to a surface when in a state of excitement, with tense muscles. Generally, they can only get one elbow to touch at a time. Leading to the random factor of, will the judge count it or not? Most do, but when they don't, it's really frustrating.

And unfair, because the hairier breeds don't have to worry about that problem. Even if they aren't completely flat to the table, the hair will cover the gap, and the judge doesn't notice.

Here's a run where my dog spends 14-15 seconds on the table, most of which she was lying down for. It was really, really frustrating to both of us. It's not super sharp video quality, but I think you can see the dog was lying down. I was putting a lot of pressure on her to make her flatter, so the judge would count it.

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  #1568  
Old 07-26-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
To be honest I don't use the clicker with the toy. I believe Trkman does, she clicks then throws the toy... I just throw the toy. I know a lot of people do not recommend using a clicker for weaves because it creates a dog who is inclined to turn toward you when they hear the click. For a while with Pay I clicked and fed him in front of him with his head facing forward, then switched to throwing a toy. Forward drive is really the important part!
This. I love clickers but I never clicker the weaves. It creates a hesitant dog, and Beanie was right on target, forward drive is the most critical part of weaves. Reward placement is the other most important part.
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  #1569  
Old 07-26-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
Thanks for the tip! I will try that!
Robin's just learning weaves as well. I either throw a toy, or put a target out in front of the weaves for him to drive towards. He does a good job about not looking at me, but he got significantly faster when the reward just appeared ahead (vs from my hand).

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Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
Here's a run where my dog spends 14-15 seconds on the table, most of which she was lying down for. It was really, really frustrating to both of us.
Whoa, I got frustrated watching that. It looked like she was down...and trying really hard to be down as far as she could. These are things I never even thought about (I ran agility with a Lab back in the day).
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  #1570  
Old 07-26-2013, 05:43 PM
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Happy the table is basically out.

Lets see, Petie would down from a flat out run/chase at a max distance from me of about 500 ft. He would down in water, in any weather conditions. He would do a table anywhere any place, with any distractions, EXCEPT in a trial. His default behaviour? Yep it is a down. The table had been trained so it was the best damned place on the earth and he was thrilled to do it.........EXCEPT in a trial. I did fun matches, I ran him FEO, didn't frigg'n matter.

I paid a lot of very good trainers for advice or tips to help me solve my problem, didn't work. Not one frigg'n method. The only thing I didn't do was give him a correction or use a shock collar on him. Think I should have? So he could be trained to do the table in a trial? Plus it wouldn't have worked unless I could have run my dog with an e collar on him


So I stopped running him in standards, gave up any chance of earning our ATChC. Stopped beating a dead horse because it was effecting our other classes and damaging our relationship. When I stopped, he excelled, those masters standard courses, no problem. No table. Placements at Regionals and Nationals, no table. Petie lacks two frigg'n Q's in Advanced, then it would have been easy peasy to get those Master Standards. He has everything in spades for that ATChC. Yeah it sucks.

So when someone says just train your dog..........that is offensive. I can assure anyone that I worked harder, paid more money and shed more tears over that F****king table to have anyone say, 'just train the dog'.
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