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  #11  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:58 AM
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Lumping means you're tossing a lot of behaviours into one - splitting means to break a behaviour down into minute parts. Baby steps, in other words... itty bitty teeny tiny baby steps, the SMALLEST baby steps possible. Bob Bailey has a saying, another of my "dog training robot" sayings LOL. "Be a splitter, not a lumper."

We as humans tend to look at things in too broad a sense. An example - to us it's "Okay, this is easy. All the dog has to do is run forward through these two poles." So we are waiting for the dog to run forward through the two poles. But in the dog's behavioural reality, what we need to be looking for is forward movement towards the poles. ANY forward movement. With baby dogs we start with even just looking at the two poles as the rewardable behaviour. Then it's rewarding forward motion towards them, then through them, then beyond them. These are all separate actions that form "run through the poles." How many individual steps (of the feet) is the entire motion up to, through, and beyond the poles for a dog? You can look at it as splitting the action down into each of those steps.

Of course that's pretty extreme and I'm not at all suggesting you actually have to sit there and click+treat every single little step, that's just an example of what I mean by splitting versus lumping. Almost every time I'm failing at teaching the dogs something, it's because I am expecting the dog to make a leap of behaviour that to ME seems simple, obvious, and logical - but to the dog it's a serious long leap of behaviour that makes no sense. There are usually steps in between the behaviour I'm getting and the behaviour I want that I can and should be rewarding for to bridge the gap. I know I do it, then when I realize what I'm doing, I smack myself on the forehead and parrot out "BE A SPLITTER NOT A LUMPER" and move forward the way I SHOULD be. =P So I'm wondering if there's not some stuff in between that you can be rewarding that will help the girls move forward and get closer to the final picture.
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  #12  
Old 06-20-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I have watched that video and that was (in my mind lol) my plan. I think I am having trouble getting the dogs to drive through especially without using a toy to throw. They run through and then I reward by hand, which is changing things.
Even if you plan to use treats to train the 2x2's throwing the treat is a key element. If you go by SG's method. You should have a tossable treat.

When I retrained Carrie using 2x2's I put canned dog food in the tiniest lidded container I could find and tossed my reward, then ran to it and opened it for her to have a lick or two. The key with 2x2's is reward placement, so rewarding out of your hand is adding little value to forward drive for the dog. She wants them driving forward to the weaves then having the reward appear ahead of the dog.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:29 AM
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When you do 2x2s or shape the weaves are you stationary? That's what I've been doing for shaping them.

Beanie that makes sense. I know I am definitely guilty of doing that and expecting too much. I think we will need to start from scratch tomorrow. I am going to have to set a timer for myself too so I don't try to do some ridiculously long session.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
When you do 2x2s or shape the weaves are you stationary? That's what I've been doing for shaping them.
I normally start out stationary (except with Webster who needed a little movement to get started before I switched to being stationary) and later add in variable positions then movement the variable positions + movement.
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:02 PM
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I think Summer will need me to move a bit at first too. So since she's not toy driven is a target the way to go? Or should I just stop completely until she follows the food ball well enough?

With the shaping I was actually sitting across from the weaves and not cuing anything. Mia would wrap around the 2nd pole of the 2x2 and come in to me for her treat. Bad?
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
My gut reaction from reading your post is that you're lumping when you should be splitting.

...

I also wonder if you're doing sessions that are too long.
This was exactly what crossed through my head when reading the OP. I would probably keep sessions to about 30 seconds, and really really break it down as Beanie suggested. Also, throwing food is key, which has also already been mentioned. Use cheese, or work on flooring where the food is easily visible so as not to waste the dog's time/energy searching for its reward. Keep your reward line in mind alllll the time.

My guess is that your dogs are very tuned into you, and you've been rewarding them looking to you for guidance. Now that they need to think and act more independently for this obstacle they're having trouble. So again, split, don't lump and keep those sessions insanely short, especially when first starting out.

I'd also like to see a video.
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I think Summer will need me to move a bit at first too. So since she's not toy driven is a target the way to go? Or should I just stop completely until she follows the food ball well enough?

With the shaping I was actually sitting across from the weaves and not cuing anything. Mia would wrap around the 2nd pole of the 2x2 and come in to me for her treat. Bad?
Yep, bad. Working against yourself. The reward needs to come down the line and away from you.

A target could help. I've used it for dogs who were having issues in class. I would encourage you to be careful of your body movement. Moving sometimes is okay, but doing it too often will again work against you. Try to move no more often than about 20% of the time.
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:16 PM
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Yep, figured. I guess I thought that the more I treated it like a 'normal' shaping session the more they'd be into it. And yes, they are very tuned into me and not very independent. It's something I've always rewarded almost all the time I'm around them. Even on walks and hikes they check in constantly.

Ok so for now Im going to set up the one single 2x2 and stand stationary and throw the treat. I need a bigger house to do all this in lol.

If you're using a target but not moving how do you reward? Putting the food out on the target isn't something I've been doing because it is easy for them to reward for going around the poles. So I've been jogging and placing the food on the target as fast as possible. Bad?
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:34 PM
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I did a verrry short session with Mia and her tennis ball throwing it through the poles. That seems to be a good way to start it but timing the throws is hard right now. This first session she is focusing a lot on the ball and less on the weaves. I was watching the video Beanie posted earlier and at first you are essentially luring the dog through the poles via the toy, right? She was definitely picking up on it although my throws are not the best and a couple times she was rewarded for jumping around them.

she doesn't work for the ball outside or at class though so translating this outside may be an issue.
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:34 PM
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Agree with what has already been said and would like to add to it.

I would actually go back a couple steps further and teach them to send (leave you) with permission to either a target and then just tossing out a easy to find, high valued reward. Start from a static position on both sides and then with you moving. Once they are driving forward start tossing your reward. As already stated, never from hand and if you can't toss onto the reward line accurately, then practice that with no dogs around

Once you have that, then introduce your first set of gates for the 2x2's. Keep sessions short (under 1 minute at first), super happy and make sure you are not making sigh's or other body language that will de-motivate them. Remember 2x2's is also about teaching dogs how to fail, bounce back and figure out how to do it right

Golden rule: never more than 2 failures in a row, if that happens figure out why and/or go back a step.
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