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  #1131  
Old 06-07-2013, 09:29 AM
SaraB SaraB is offline
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I guess I don't buy the "it's a mal thing" excuse for the wiping out around turns, maybe for the crashing jumps though (I agree that she could be handling ETS in mal fashion). I know plenty of mals (some with extremely high drive and tight turns) that run agility and have never seen them wipe out just in turns. If it were me, I would have her evaluated.
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  #1132  
Old 06-07-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
I guess I don't buy the "it's a mal thing" excuse for the wiping out around turns, maybe for the crashing jumps though (I agree that she could be handling ETS in mal fashion). I know plenty of mals (some with extremely high drive and tight turns) that run agility and have never seen them wipe out just in turns. If it were me, I would have her evaluated.
Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like in your area most training and competing is done inside? Like, in this vid, Pan's jumping looks way better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GiCZZijdWE. It's outside on fast straight approaches that she gets in trouble. Also, to be fair, in the one seminar video that I posted, we were in the morning group and the grass was dewy and slippery, lots of dogs were falling on turns.

I agree though, that she does look "off", compared to most dogs, most of the time when jumping, and she can't turn as tight as some dogs. I think that a lot of it is her structure, she's long, short, and upright.
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  #1133  
Old 06-07-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Panzerotti View Post
Not trying to be argumentative, but it seems like in your area most training and competing is done inside? Like, in this vid, Pan's jumping looks way better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GiCZZijdWE. It's outside on fast straight approaches that she gets in trouble. Also, to be fair, in the one seminar video that I posted, we were in the morning group and the grass was dewy and slippery, lots of dogs were falling on turns.

I agree though, that she does look "off", compared to most dogs, most of the time when jumping, and she can't turn as tight as some dogs. I think that a lot of it is her structure, she's long, short, and upright.
I can't go back and look at the videos, but there was a good variety of surfaces in them if I remember correctly.

Yes, most training is done indoors here, but we do have plenty of trials outdoors in the summer and in dirt arenas year round.

Just pointing out my opinion from what I saw in the videos and my experiences with agility. Take it or leave it.
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  #1134  
Old 06-07-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
I guess I don't buy the "it's a mal thing" excuse for the wiping out around turns, maybe for the crashing jumps though (I agree that she could be handling ETS in mal fashion). I know plenty of mals (some with extremely high drive and tight turns) that run agility and have never seen them wipe out just in turns. If it were me, I would have her evaluated.
I do agree it can mostly be an unfair excuse to limit solutions with saying it's a mal thing. That beings said the lacking self preservation, exuding brute force, slamming, twisting, JUST DO IT, and lack of impulse has been specifically bred into many working malinois lines(FWIW there is a lot of value in a dog as such). It's a very common issue, they don't think as clearly and that is ideal in many cases but not always in sports. Then again they shouldn't be stumbling all over, generally speaking.

In theory, while thoughtfulness is rarely their strong suit and the JUST DO IT sometimes does bite you in the ass it shouldn't be impossible to correct with a good trainer and a good handler having taken an exceeding amount of time. I totally agree this might actually not be just a mal thing and far more something like ETS (or more) which I still don't understand after a few years of hearing about it over and over by my bc/sheltie friends.

I haven't watched the videos and I plan to once my phone is charged (can't on work comp, too slow) so maybe I will change my tune, really, but if it's noticably an issue of stumbling on a regular basis I wonder if they is in fact something more from the descriptions.
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  #1135  
Old 06-07-2013, 10:17 AM
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I do agree it can mostly be an unfair excuse to limit solutions with saying it's a mal thing. That beings said the lacking self preservation, exuding brute force, slamming, twisting, JUST DO IT, and lack of impulse has been specifically bred into many working malinois lines(FWIW there is a lot of value in a dog as such). It's a very common issue, they don't think as clearly and that is ideal in many cases but not always in sports. Then again they shouldn't be stumbling all over, generally speaking.
\
And this is the part I'm talking about. I'm very well aware that working mals have no self-preservation and they do tend to stumble/run into things/whatever a lot. However, I have never seen a dog stumble as frequently as I saw in those videos. Now it could be just the selection since it's a small sample and it could be different in real life, but that's the sample I saw. If it was all on the same surface, again, I wouldn't be pointing it out.

ETA: I'm not talking about the running into the jumps. The stumbling around the turns. As Pan said, it could just be her structure.
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  #1136  
Old 06-07-2013, 10:20 AM
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I agree though, that she does look "off", compared to most dogs, most of the time when jumping, and she can't turn as tight as some dogs. I think that a lot of it is her structure, she's long, short, and upright.
Out of curiosity will you post a photo of her stacked? Or close to?

I remember going to a Daisy Peel seminar with Sloan when we first started and she told me Sloan would always struggle with tight turns due to her structure, she said she wasn't built for this. I was totally taken aback, like, what? This is the little dog that jumps 6' from stand still, dances on her hind legs for fun and makes anything athletic look like a walk in the park. Then again when I see her weave and I see B weave, my out of standard long loin GSD looking malinois, it's a world of difference. However, that being said she's never accidentally crashed into a jump unless I lined her up wrong. She's fool proof while Backup slams into and literally breaks jumps to the point I felt guilty running him for both his body and the equipment until recently.

Q, square like Sloan but much taller than Pan, has trouble jumping as well. It was a serious issue with his CDX and something being faced in IPO. They call him a "lazy jumper". For a breed that clears palisades like they're park benches these dogs are sure a headache with 24 inches.
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  #1137  
Old 06-07-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
However, I have never seen a dog stumble as frequently as I saw in those videos. Now it could be just the selection since it's a small sample and it could be different in real life, but that's the sample I saw. If it was all on the same surface, again, I wouldn't be pointing it out.
I am really not seeing a lot of stumbling. I see a few skids in deep dirt and slippery grass when she's trying to turn tight and accelerate, but no more frequently than my friend's Mal and other fast BCs that were there as well.

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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I remember going to a Daisy Peel seminar with Sloan when we first started and she told me Sloan would always struggle with tight turns due to her structure, she said she wasn't built for this. I was totally taken aback, like, what? This is the little dog that jumps 6' from stand still, dances on her hind legs for fun and makes anything athletic look like a walk in the park. Then again when I see her weave and I see B weave, my out of standard long loin GSD looking malinois, it's a world of difference.
Yep. Me and Pan have had lessons with quite a few international level competitors, and all have told me that if I want to compete at that level, to get a BC. I guess I'm just kind of disappointed because Pan has the mental ability to do it, but it's hard enough for any Mal to compete with the BCs, and pretty much impossible for one with jumping issues.

I don't have any stacked pics.....this one is the closest I can find. It's hard to tell how little and short she is because I am also little and short, lol. But when I brought her to train with her breeder last summer the whole group was laughing at her, wondering when I cut off her legs, lol.

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  #1138  
Old 06-07-2013, 12:55 PM
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Adrianne, the reason you probably don't understand ETS is because nobody - including LM who came up with it - does. Something is causing these jumping problems but she doesn't know what. She believes it's an eye related problem but doesn't know for sure. You can't examine dog's eyes or sight the way you do with people so as of yet medicine can't provide any proof to her theory. Some people have gone the corrective lens route and it appears to help some and does nothing for others (there is a person in the circle around here with a sheltie that is the latter.) She thinks it's genetic and hereditary so collected a bunch of DNA swabs from border collie people to try and find something that might provide a clue, I have not heard any kind of results on that yet though.

Too many unknowns, how could anybody really understand it? LM admitted in a follow up article that she is just presenting her findings, her theories, her "personal, unscientific evaluation of the data she has available" to herself. Clearly she believes in her theory, and is determined to chase down something scientific here (hence the DNA swabs,) but as of yet it is just a presenting of findings.

One thing I DO know - or at least the last I heard - the only person who can "diagnose" a dog with true ETS is LM, and she has had to come out and cautioned people against labeling any dog with any jumping problems as "an ETS dog." The VERY FIRST sentence in one of her follow-up articles is "There is not ONE single reason why dogs take off early when jumping."


Personally when I watch Pan I don't see a dog with signs that people typically file away under ETS. Now, admittedly, my view of jumping all comes from Salo and Clothier, so maybe I'm not looking at it the same way LM folks do. But it's just not what I see.



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Yep. Me and Pan have had lessons with quite a few international level competitors, and all have told me that if I want to compete at that level, to get a BC.
This attitude disgusts me in ways I just can't describe.
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  #1139  
Old 06-07-2013, 12:58 PM
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Cause BCs never have jumping problems? lol
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  #1140  
Old 06-07-2013, 01:04 PM
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Honestly, I just don't get that attitude at all. I'm probably just not competitive enough or maybe I just don't care enough. I'd much rather have fun with MY dogs and dogs that suit me outside of agility too than to go out and get the 'best agility breed' just because they're the 'best'. It makes me feel like those people have lost what it's all about. But what do I know, I don't have 'real agility dogs'.

I do happen to like BCs outside of agility lots but still.... agility is a freaking game. There should be a lot more going into picking your dog.
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