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  #41  
Old 05-09-2013, 09:58 AM
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I don't think anyone is saying put bamm to sleep before having a child. I think it's being said as a.. You have to be prepared for the worst.
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:12 AM
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I absolutely love kids and I would do anything to protect my nieces. But I don't think every non child friendly dog should be put down before having kids. It really depends on the situation with that dog and how you can manage it. I would be very nervous with a dog that reacts aggressively towards sudden movement. But I think a dog that reacts by running could be managed. Ive only been around Bamm a short time though and he was behaving then so I've never seen this behavior. I don't think it's something that needs to be decided now though. Something to realize may come down the line though. No one will blame you for putting a kid before a dog though.
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  #43  
Old 05-10-2013, 08:15 AM
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I've read the last few pages. Was working all day yesterday and then had class with Cricket so wasn't able to respond.

I'll respond after I get my morning stuff done and am able to get on my actual computer since typing on my phone is a pain in the butt.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:51 AM
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Alrighty... finally at my computer now so I can post

Quote:
Originally Posted by noludoru View Post
I'm probably going to have a really unpopular opinion here. . . well, opinions. . .

Bamm is unpredictable. Having been on the verge of feeling his unpredictability I can completely understand your worry. I truly do not think he's safe around a child. I don't even think he's safe around Josh. (However, Josh is an adult and gets to make his own decisions about what risks he takes.) I remember sitting on the couch next to you watching the OC with Bamm between us, and having him go from slinky and relaxed to stiff, white-eyed, and frozen a foot away from my face. I easily could have been snapped at - or in the hospital with stitches. Relaxing, licking my lips, slouching, and looking away from him didn't change his posture a bit. That worries me more than the initial bite threat.

I don't think you should put him down before you even get pregnant. I think you should cross that bridge when you come to it. But I don't think he should ever be in the house or within 200 yards of a child - especially yours - without a basket muzzle on, preferably soft one so that he can't cause damage. And if he goes a few years without issues? Great. If he doesn't? I think it will be kinder to everyone to put him to sleep. It's irresponsible to try to re-home him, and he's so bonded to you that I don't think he could live without you.

I'm going to preface my second extremely unpopular opinion by saying please make sure you're alone when you continue to read my post.



Do you really want to have kids with Josh? I don't think he treats you well. At all. And he's definitely not comfortable about certain aspects of your life that you've previously talked about that a life partner should be comfortable with. That, to me, is a major issue. I realize you're married and committed and want to make things work, but do you want to make things work for the sake of making things work or because you're truly in love with each other? This is not a question you need to answer to me or on the forum. You don't owe me that at all. I just want you to think about it. I love you, and I'm worried. I hope I'm not coming across as harsh, and I know I could be way off because I'm not you and I'm not in your shoes.

Third, and probably my least unpopular opinion of the night. . . If you really want to get pregnant - see a chiropractor. I heavily recommend Sean Connor. He's a good friend of mine and is a great chiro. If you get regular adjustments for a month or so, it's very likely you'll get pregnant. We saw it happen all the time. Sounds crazy, but it's a lot cheaper than a repro doctor and you've got nothing to lose by going.
I do have a softer basket muzzle. I think it's called the baskerville ultra muzzle or something like that. The basket is a foldable harder rubber. The only thing I don't like about it is it doesn't seem to fit him right and pushes on his nose a bit. The next size up was way too big for him though. We have worked with him in that muzzle a LOT though so he's gotten better with muzzles... basket style ones at least. I may look into getting a greyhound style basket muzzle for him since that probably wouldn't put pressure on his nose. I do like that the baskerville is great for being able to easily still give your dog treats for training though.

I definitely will look into the chiropractor route. I'll probably wait on that until we are in our own place though. We are shooting for the end of the summer and Josh has some really big job bids that are coming up which will make putting aside extra money to rent out own place even easier. He's actually going to be redoing a bunch of stuff at a prison and then has a bunch of work he's going to be doing for a millionaire out here. Should be good money.

On the subject of Josh... things are going MUCH better these days and have been for the most part the past 6 months. We do fight still on occasion, but not like we used to. Went through a marriage communication class that has helped us learn to really talk things out better and see each other as our own individuals that are allowed our own thoughts and opinions. He also chose to go see the marriage counselor on his own which was a huge step for mr pride. He's still a little controlling.... mainly when it comes to money, but I don't foresee that changing. He has gotten better though and I have access to our bank account now and he doesn't hassle me if I spend a little money here and there. He just asks that if I use the bank card that I let him know how much I spend and that if it's over a certain amount that I check in with him first to make sure we can afford for me to spend that money. I think that's pretty reasonable. It's his way of keeping track of the budget and not allowing our account to go into the negatives. My bank account when I was single was constantly going into the negatives. Since we've been married the bank account has not hit negatives once because he is so anal about budget. I don't give him my entire paychecks anymore though. I'll give him the money to help pay my car and the money to pay one or two of our bills, but that's it. The rest of what I make pays for dog food, raw cat food, vet bills, some of our meals, some gas and I have set myself a portion of my income to spend on fun stuff though most of that gets put away for tattoo savings or vet funds if something should arise that might cost more than what I have set aside for vet bills. Sometimes it also goes towards treating us to a nice dinner once in a while or date night of some sort. There are still things that we don't like so much about each other, but I think it's safe to say that in every relationship you will find something you don't like about the other person and the stuff we don't like about each other isn't exactly marriage ending. I can deal with stubborn and hard headed as long as the super controlling aspect that he had going on for a while there isn't rearing it's ugly head. Things have definitely gotten much better though and when he's an ass I stand up for myself now when I didn't so much before. I don't put up with it and he doesn't try to push my buttons much anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrose_s View Post
I want to echo what others have said re: working with a good trainer/behabviourist. And probably not your boss.

I'm extremely lucky to have a behaviourist as a boss also (I'll call him that for the purposes of this but he doesn't refer to himself as one) He is qualified, experienced and trained under some awesome trainers. I trust his opinion and so far, he hasn't led me wrong.
I thought I had a pretty good handle on behaviour before I started spending a lot of time around him but in the last six months I have relised how much stuff I missed, even with my own dogs I know back to front.
The things I have changed at home in this time have made a huge difference between my dogs. (when at the time, I felt like Quinn was spiralling into a mess where she wasn't going to be able to be loose with any of the dogs she lived with.)

That being said, I have also lived with a very unbalanced dog (Harry) that seemed to have similar issues. He'd be fine... until he wasn't. It was unpredictable, hard to pick and when you saw the signs you had about half a second before he reacted. In the end it killed him, the worst bit is he was PTS scared and knowing he messed up. It was selfish of us not to take that option sooner.
Bad genetics, very poor early socialisation or a combination of these can sometimes just not be overcome. No matter how much you want to be able to.

Few of us here are experts and not one of us can give advice over the net without seeing the situation. Get a good trainer/behaviourist.
The bolded is what I experience. It could be that it really is predictable and that I'm failing to see the signs because I'm around him so much. Biggest reason why I need to get a behaviorist on board.
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  #45  
Old 05-10-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiparty View Post
Just in reply to some things...

yeah, you can probably keep the baby and the dog separated for a while. But, when your baby starts learning how to crawl and walk, it's going to be a different ball game.

You *want* to have a safe environment for the baby to explore. That's how they learn early motor coordination and new experiences help their immature brains develop. It's not fair to keep the baby contained just because the dog can't handle sudden movement. That's just no life for a little one.

Honestly, if you're going to put your dogs' needs before the baby's, I'd suggest just waiting until you don't have the dog anymore before you conceive.

I know you really really love your dog, and I think that's an amazing thing. I wish more people loved their dogs the way that you love Bamm. But, the baby's needs absolutely 100% have to come first.

And if you KNOW your dog has a bite history and it does go after the baby, you could get charged with child endangerment becausue you were aware of the problem.

Knowingly putting your little one in a situation like that to test and see how the dogs reacts is really irresponsible in my opinion.

I know maybe some people on this board aren't kid lovers and probably flat out don't even like kids, and that's ok. But if she wants to have a baby, the baby has to come first, not the dog, and that's just the way it would have to be.
I love my dogs more than anything. Anyone that knows me knows this.... but in a situation where a child is brought into the equation, that child will always come first no matter what. I didn't understand that years ago, but now that I'm more in the stage of my life where kids are starting to become more of a reality I've had to really take a step back and swallow that thought. When I was younger there was not a thing in the world that I would be willing to put before my dog. Also... waiting until Bamm is old and gone isn't super realistic when conceiving is really hard to do. I'm not willing to wait until he has passed on to start trying because I might miss what little window I may have.

That said, I still want to give it a shot and don't have any intentions of putting him to sleep before I have a kid. I'm going to work with a behaviorist, try meds, get him checked out to make sure there isn't anything else medically wrong that could be contributing, etc. He has had his thyroid checked before and that was fine, but it's been a while so I'm also going to have that checked out as well. If a child comes along and he ends up being too stressed over it and/or poses a danger than I'll cross that bridge and kindly choose to euthanize. Last night I went over and over in my head about whether or not I'd consider rehoming him to a trainer with no kids and no intentions of kids, but while he might do ok I don't think uprooting him from everything he knows and making him start over is a good idea and I think it could potentially wind up truly damaging him. I'd much rather euthanize him than have everything he knows ripped out from under him like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post

My point wasn't to do so but merely every case is different and numerous cases lend themselves to pleasant surprises. It is entirely possible someone is missing something with this dog that a behaviorist, one without preconceived judgements, can help with. For the simplest of examples, why was a dog who's known to be aggressive on the couch between that which he guards and another person? Dogs, in my experience, are not clear cut as predictable and unpredictable. It's each owners job to judge the dog and shape their management skills around the reactions.
In my defense... on the bold subject... he isn't allowed on couches anymore at all. I've come a LONG way in learning dog behavior since the incident Nolu was referring to. That was quite a few years ago.
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  #46  
Old 05-10-2013, 11:40 AM
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I just want to say while I appreciate the response I hope you know I think you're great and really know you mean best. I brought that up to point out at least one workable/preventable issue that, IMO, does not signify an unstable dog.
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  #47  
Old 05-10-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I just want to say while I appreciate the response I hope you know I think you're great and really know you mean best. I brought that up to point out at least one workable/preventable issue that, IMO, does not signify an unstable dog.
Oh ok. I gotcha. Sorry. Responded on sleepy brain lol. Reallly tired today.
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  #48  
Old 05-10-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by skittledoo View Post
I have an honest question and I'd really like to be able to post about this without judgment.

Josh and I have been off and on talking about kids for a while. He is 27 and I'm almost 27 (in August). I don't want to wait too long to start having kids (we want one or two) especially since fertility issues tend to be quite common in my family it seems. Mainly PCOS. I've been trying to lose the weight and it's been up and down, but losing the weight should hopefully help make it easier to conceive. We haven't been using any protection for a few years.

Anyways... the big thing that keeps popping up in my head is Bamm. When I got him I wasn't even thinking about kids and he had been ok around the few older kids I had introduced him to so I wasn't aware that he can tend to be iffy around kids. He seems to do ok around most older kids... I'm talking like 7ish and up provided they aren't rowdy kids. The biggest things that tend to set him off with kids are sudden movements, a kid falling, loud noises or if they are walking towards him or past him. But even then sometimes he will react and sometimes he wont so there has to be another common denominator that I'm failing to notice right?

I want more than anything for us to be able to have a kid within the next year or two and Bamm still live with us and everything be peaceful... but I'm worried how the reality of things might go. I don't think I could trust him around an infant and at the same time I don't think keeping him crated up or penned up somewhere away from the baby and rest of the family is any quality of life to live and I love him too much to do that to him. I don't want to be one of those people that "oh I just had a baby so I'm going to get rid of or kill my dog," but at the same time I feel like keeping him around a baby would be disastrous in the long run and I feel like he would be constantly stressed out.

I know I don't have to make a decision right now. I'm not even remotely pregnant, but eventually we might be faced with decisions and right now the thought of having to make a decision that might result in me losing him one way or another... it just hurts.

Some people have mentioned "why can't you just wait to have a kid until he passes on?"... umm... he's 7. He could easily live another 7 plus more years.

He has bitten people which makes rehoming him difficult if not irresponsible. I guess I could rehome him if it was to a trainer that I trust that knows his background but I worry about the risks and if he did bite someone it would fall back on me. Putting him to sleep would probably be the kinder response, but the idea of doing so just makes me feel like a failure to him.

I guess my question is... what would you do if you were in my situation? I know there are quite a few chazzers that don't ever want kids... but... if you did and you were in my position what would you do? I'm not asking for anyone to tell me what to do... just trying to get input and perspectives.

Is there a way to safely work on his reaction to kids? I don't want to put someone else's kids in any kind of potential danger so I don't know how to even go about training him further in this area. I really think there has to be some sort of common denominator I'm missing... or maybe I just need to accept the fact that he is never going to be kid friendly... or even kid tolerable at best. His threshold is SUPER low when it comes to kids which is why I don't allow him around kids. We've worked on him looking to me when he sees a dog, kid, adult for years and he still doesn't get it. He will do it sometimes and I reward reward and make a party out of it to try to show him that's what I want, but when he gets focused on something he will. not. look. away. and he gets that hard stare going. In that case I just have to manage it and walk away from whatever is catching his attention. We've done click to calm and it helps to some degree. It might be helpful one day, but then the next day no amount of click to calm work will ease his anxiety. It doesn't help that I have serious issues with anxiety disorder myself and even the last trainer that worked with him (who is a friend of mine too) said that he thinks that Bamm feeds off of my anxiety a lot.

I'm just stumped right now. Like I said, not making decisions right now regarding him, but... oy.

The reason I'm bringing all this up is because today I was walking him for his morning potty. My landlord's grandson's are visiting (ages 2 and 4 I think). The boys were playing with a basketball in the driveway and I was standing in the grass with Bamm and talking to my landlord's daughter inlaw because she happened to drive up and was asking me how things are going. Bamm was looking over at the kids, but he wasn't really tensed up. He'd look at the kids for a minute and then look over at a nearby bush or whatever. I didn't have treats on me but when he looked away from the kids I told him what a good boy he was and he wagged his tail and looked for the most part really relaxed and normal. Then the basketball bounced past us and the 2 year old went to grab the ball. My leash was still nice and loose but then he lunged at the end of the leash barking and growling at the little kid. Thankfully he was muzzled (I knew there are kids at the house) and the kid was still nowhere near in reach, but I was really unhappy about it.

So again... I'm not asking what you guys think I should do and I'm not making any decisions right now... what I am asking for is what you would do if Bamm was your dog and if you were at a point in your life where kids might soon become a reality.

Outside of this he really is a good dog. He is still dog reactive even though he is doing much better, but I can live with a DR dog... been doing so for years and we have worked hard to even get to the point we are at now. Years ago I couldn't even walk him in the same park where another dog was. Just the other day we went hiking with 9 OTHER dogs and had zero issues. What I have a harder time dealing with is him being a constant bite risk with people. He does REALLY well at my work and anyone there seems to be able to handle him with no issues, but out in the real world he is more difficult. If it was easier to predict what his triggers are it would be easier to manage I think. Kids are a little easier to predict when he might trigger than adults.

I wish I knew else how to explain how uncomfortable it is when he starts getting all weird about people. Nolu might be able to help out on this one. He was fine with her and knew her VERRRRRYYYY well and even still sometimes he'd get a little sketchy around her. He gets like that sometimes around my husband too when half the time he chooses to hang out with my husband over hanging out with me nowadays.

One time Bamm was lying down and Josh was sitting on the couch. Josh stood up to walk into the kitchen to make food. As soon as he started walking to go into the kitchen Bamm jumped up and went after him growling. He didn't try to bite Josh, but he stood there growling. From what I remember Josh was calm when he stood up and calm when he started walking towards the kitchen. There was nothing alarming about the way Josh stood up that caused me to understand why Bamm did that. But then 5 minutes later Bamm was happy wagging his tail and begging Josh for food. This isn't a type of behavior that happens often with Bamm though. Just once in a while it's like something in his brain snaps... almost as if he is honestly mentally unstable.
This might seem a little blunt & I am sorry for that but I will Try not to be.

The dog was there first ... YOU chose HIM he didn't get to choose. You could try to work with a trainer (a good one) but be prepared for the diagnosis of "he's just not that good with kids & that's who he is" Izze ... The best dog I had hated HATED kids under 7 & I wouldn't have have her up for anything so you can understand why I prickle a little when someone wants kids but their dog isn't god with them so they contemplate getting rid of the dog so they can have kids. Sorry if I say that sounds a little selfish.

Given his tendencies & history you might have to wait til he passes on. It's only fair to him.
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  #49  
Old 05-10-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
Without reading everything, or everyone's replies...

I was in a similar situation with Chloe. Luckily, my mom is able to take care of her long term. If that wasn't an option, I would have tried to manage, by muzzling/confining/meds/behavior modification. If that didn't work, or I didn't feel the child was safe...I would euthanize. I don't think it would be failing her if that is what it boiled down to. It would kill me, but I would do it.
I wouldn't or couldn't do that ... Even though she has passed away ... When I think of doigrhatbto Izze my heart clenches & it's hard to breathe ... Like I am having a panic attack. It was hard enough to lose her by someone else's (we think but can't prove) hand was hard enough ... I can't imagine making the choice to end my dogs life myself.

No just ... No.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dogdragoness View Post
This might seem a little blunt & I am sorry for that but I will Try not to be.

The dog was there first ... YOU chose HIM he didn't get to choose. You could try to work with a trainer (a good one) but be prepared for the diagnosis of "he's just not that good with kids & that's who he is" Izze ... The best dog I had hated HATED kids under 7 & I wouldn't have have her up for anything so you can understand why I prickle a little when someone wants kids but their dog isn't god with them so they contemplate getting rid of the dog so they can have kids. Sorry if I say that sounds a little selfish.

Given his tendencies & history you might have to wait til he passes on. It's only fair to him.


Yeah, say you have a 2yr old dog and you get pregnant. The dog displays all the same behaviours Bamm is displaying. You're saying you would put your child in danger because of that dog? What if your dog lives well into his teens; are you going to wait until you're in your 30s, 40s to have a kid? That's not reasonable for most people. If that would work for you, good for you.

I love dogs as much as anyone, but humans always come first. Everyone should be in it for the long haul when they get a dog. But unexpected things happen. Animals develop issues and sometimes are incompatible with the owner, some things training and management cannot fix.
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